ISAF and IHC

Discuss measuring an IOM and being a measurer

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Lester
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ISAF and IHC

Post by Lester » 28 Feb 2007, 17:26

ISAF has finally launched IHC. A quick glance through its requirements makes it clear that it is unlikely to suit any of the Radio Sailing Classes. In the past in the UK, the RYA has simply refused to engage with the IOMICA interest and position on the topic. Perhaps there is now an opportunity through ISAF itself.
http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?ID=j ... rmat=popup

ISAF IN-HOUSE CERTIFICATION
Some of the world's leading sailing nations have joined the ISAF In-House Certification programme (IHC), which aims to make getting out on the water and racing as simple as possible. Since the launch of the IHC last year several Olympic Classes and leading manufactures have also joined the programme.

The IHC programme will give sailors the opportunity to buy equipment which is race legal at the point of purchase. ISAF is aiming to implement an international system of IHC, giving sailors worldwide the benefits of self-certificated equipment principally savings in time and cost.

The basic structure of IHC incorporates ISAF Classes, Member National Authorities (MNAs) and manufactures as the key stakeholders. Since the launch of the IHC programme last year, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and the USA have all joined the development of the programme.

The IHC centres around a Certification System allowing the builder to self-certify their equipment at the point of manufacture but only once their have met a designated standard. Each nation or region will have an IHC Authorizing Authority (AA) approved by ISAF (normally the MNA), which will approve, contract and audit builders with Certification Systems. ISAF Classes involved in the IHC will ensure their class rules are suitable for IHC and assist the development of control methods and training.

Classes already involved include the 49er, 470, Finn, RS:X, Tornado and Yngling Olympic Classes, as well as the 29er, Formula 18 and Hobie 16 and Tiger.

Classes, MNAs and manufacturers that would like to become involved in or find out more about the IHC programme should contact the ISAF Technical Department to obtain an ISAF IHC Pack, or visit the ISAF IHC microsite at http://www.sailing.org/ihc
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Andy Stevenson
GBR NCA Officer
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Post by Andy Stevenson » 01 Mar 2007, 11:07

Hi Lester,

I was initially quite encouraged by the idea of self certification for sail manufacturers, but am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it’s unlikely to work for Radio Sailing.

I think it’s a function of scale; sail makers seem unwilling to go to the effort and expense of producing patterns for self certified sails when the rewards are likely to be limited. Is a sail maker going to reasonably be able to expect a sufficient increase in turnover to see a return on the investment? Or would they reasonably expect to be able to charge a premium for self certified sails?

This strikes me as the fundamental difference between Radio Sailing and our full size cousins. Manufacturers of full size sails deal in volumes that make it worthwhile, those people providing us with sails for our model boats don’t.

Until we can either find a system that offers a clear benefit to sail makers, or one that requires little cost or effort on their part, I doubt much progress will ensue.

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

Lester
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Post by Lester » 02 Mar 2007, 00:28

andy111 wrote:Until we can either find a system that offers a clear benefit to sail makers, or one that requires little cost or effort on their part, I doubt much progress will ensue
Hi Andy

I think there is clear potential benefit to owners. I would pay a (modest) premium, certainly, to receive an already-signed suit of sails, than have to travel to, spend somewhat dead time with (though I love him dearly!), and pay, my local measurer.

Whether this can be turned into a benefit for sailmakers is the question.

Other owners: why not post here with the specific additional amount of money that you would happily pay for your next IOM No.1 suit (jib plus main), on top of the normal cost, for it to be already signed as measured and legal?

I'll start: £5.
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Andy Stevenson
GBR NCA Officer
Posts: 772
Joined: 15 Sep 2005, 13:08
Location: UK

Post by Andy Stevenson » 02 Mar 2007, 01:21

Other owners: why not post here with the specific additional amount of money that you would happily pay for your next IOM No.1 suit (jib plus main), on top of the normal cost, for it to be already signed as measured and legal?

I'll start: £5.
Good idea! I’ll concur with a £5 premium for self certified sails. (Although I must admit my local measurer doesn’t charge!)

Perhaps it would also be useful to hear from sail makers. What kind of return would make it worthwhile having to prepare and submit pattern sails?

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

soeren_andresen
DEN NCA Officer
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Post by soeren_andresen » 02 Mar 2007, 09:52

Hi

Even though Denmark is a little country and there is no charge for measurement of sails, it would still cost about 50 £. The reason is that there is a toll bridge between me and the other measure, and about 250km each way.
Well I could measure the sails myself since I am a measure, but I do not think that is legal.

The bottom line is that I would gladly pay 5-10 £ extra, for a set of IHC sails.

Best regards
Søren Andresen
Personal sail# DEN 93
HULL#: DEN 93, DEN 120

Hiljoball
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Sail number: CAN 307
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Post by Hiljoball » 02 Mar 2007, 18:57

Is there a difference for a sailmaker between being IHC and being a measurer?

The IHC certification sounds like an expensive process, acceptable with big boat costs and margins, but overkill for R/C?

What is wrong with having a sailmaker be a measurer and provide a measurement certificate with the sails?

When I buy a set of sails from a sailmaker that advertizes IOM sails, I expect them to conform to class rules. The price of the certificate should be built in to the quoted price.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8

Andy Stevenson
GBR NCA Officer
Posts: 772
Joined: 15 Sep 2005, 13:08
Location: UK

Post by Andy Stevenson » 04 Mar 2007, 00:43

Hi John
What is wrong with having a sailmaker be a measurer and provide a measurement certificate with the sails?
Essentially that’s the goal of IHC, rather than you having to visit a measurer to get your sails signed, they arrive with signatures in place.
When I buy a set of sails from a sailmaker that advertizes IOM sails, I expect them to conform to class rules.
A reasonable expectation, however the sailmaker, as yet, doesn’t have the authority to certify them as such.
The price of the certificate should be built in to the quoted price.
That’s the point, it isn’t at the moment. The administration required to make it so is likely to increase the price of the sails. The question is would you be willing to pay extra for certified sails?

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

Hiljoball
Posts: 266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 01:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Post by Hiljoball » 04 Mar 2007, 02:26

I understand the IHC concept as it relates to producing a one-design hull and rig and sails. There are many measurement points and templates involved.

What I was getting at is can the IOM class or National Authority designate measurers, and by extension designate sailmakers as measurers?

The sailmaker is building the IOM sails to a set size. That info can be reproduced on boilerplate sail measurement certificates. All they have to do is specify the boat/owner information. That should not cost anything extra as it is a few seconds of work to fill in the remaining blanks and sign off the sails.

Does our status as an ISAF class preclude this 'shortcut'?
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8

Andy Stevenson
GBR NCA Officer
Posts: 772
Joined: 15 Sep 2005, 13:08
Location: UK

Post by Andy Stevenson » 04 Mar 2007, 03:00

The sailmaker is building the IOM sails to a set size.
Well, I’m not sure this is true. The sail dimensions are tightly regulated sure, but they’re not “one designâ€
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

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