MEASURER IN CHARGE AT BARBADOS WORLD CUP

Discuss measuring an IOM and being a measurer

Moderator: Lawrie Neish

Post Reply
Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

MEASURER IN CHARGE AT BARBADOS WORLD CUP

Post by Antonio Espada » 19 Apr 2009, 07:40

We know who will be responsible for the measurement at next World championsip ?.
It would be nice to know what are the criteria under which they will act:
Will accept 10mm masts?
How will consider the problem of weights, as discussed at length in the forum rules of class?
Accept measurement certificates created means .pdf?

I guess that will have answers to each of the issues, because if not ...
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

Nigel
Posts: 108
Joined: 18 Nov 2003, 20:43
Location: GERMANY

Post by Nigel » 20 Apr 2009, 13:17

Antonio, 10mm masts are not class legal.

The ESP attempt to change the class rules to reduce the min. mast diameter did not receive the necessary number of votes >66%.
Nigel Winkley
GER 87

Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

Post by Antonio Espada » 20 Apr 2009, 18:27

Hi Nigel.
Can you please answer my question about "who will measure the world championship." I'm doing a question and do not intend to open another forum for discussion about what each one feels about an issue or another. For this and other forums, which obviously can not come to any conclusion.
I do not know whether you are a measurer or not, but what I want to know is what I believed to be the OFFICIAL MEASURER ChampionshipI have clear answers to three questions posed, but do not know what the answers to who is really going to be the judge of the measurement of the championship.
With all due respect ... everything else is opinion only.

Or is it that nobody is going to measure the world championship?
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Post by Hiljoball » 20 Apr 2009, 19:20

Nigel wrote:Antonio, 10mm masts are not class legal.

The ESP attempt to change the class rules to reduce the min. mast diameter did not receive the necessary number of votes >66%.
Hi Nigel,

I agree with you that the 10mm masts are not legal as the item has not yet been endorsed by the RSD.

I agree with you that the 10mm mast dia proposal failed to reach the required number of votes as specified in the IOM constitution.

However the minutes of the 2008 AGM show the item as 'Passed' and there is a reference that this item, along with the others passed at that AGM are to be referred to the RSD for endorsment.

So far there has not been a response to my assertion (in the thread on the status of the 2008 voted changes) that the 2008 AGM minutes are in error and that this item should show as 'failed'.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Nigel
Posts: 108
Joined: 18 Nov 2003, 20:43
Location: GERMANY

Post by Nigel » 20 Apr 2009, 20:39

Sorry Antonio, didn't mean to take this discussion down the route other threads in this forum are going.

I do think it is clear, that at this moment in time as a particpant (which I not am) I would not consider taking 10mm masts to this event or advise the German team members to take this risk.

Can't help you on the other points.
Nigel Winkley
GER 87

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Post by Hiljoball » 20 Apr 2009, 21:46

Antonio Espada wrote:o who is really going to be the judge of the measurement of the championship.
.[/b]
Regardless of who does the measurement checks at the event, I think that the final arbiter of a measurement dispute at the Worlds would be the International Jury.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

Post by Antonio Espada » 21 Apr 2009, 09:52

What you say is true ... whenever there is a protest.
Previously, he will have taken control, and usually a Jury is not going to change what he's seen as the correct by measurer.
Therefore, it is who decides what is really is good or bad, because the measurer's function is to achieve maximum equity in the line of departure. That is their mission.
I imagine those who have that responsibility, reading and rereading pages and pages on the web, that express opinions and to say nothing ...
And also wondering where the Jury is written black on white, all of the things that the measurer will take as good ....
This is why I wonder who is the measurer of the World Championship
I just had a case with an international jury, composed of 24 international judges, and I know exactly what the way forward.
I also know the answers to questions that I apply.
But ... What Mr. Measurer of world Cup responsible apply?
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

valpro
Posts: 119
Joined: 26 Sep 2004, 12:14
Location: GBR1511

Post by valpro » 21 Apr 2009, 11:14

Antonio, having been the Official Measurer at World and European Championships many times let me explain to you how this works.
The class will appoint or approve a person to be the Official Measurer, to organise and oversee the measurement of the boats competing and to inform the participating helpers of procedures and standards. Where a helper cannot see that the item in question passes measurement correctly they should pass that point to the official measurer for further examination or, if necessary, change. The OM must also over see the production of certificates and be satisfied that the certificate is indeed for the boat that is entered.
At the end of measurement and when he/she is satisfied that the boats are all in compliance with the rules and in possession of valid measurement certificates, the OM will write a report to the Jury Chairman to that effect and effectively 'sign off' the measurement phase of the Championship. If there is ongoing daily check measurement after each race, that information will also be in the report so that the Jury has all the facts before them.
In the event of a protest involving measurement and certification of a boat, the OM is usually called by the Jury as a witness and may be required by the Jury to remeasure the boat or any part of its equipment before reporting back to the Jury.
What the OM cannot and may not do is make decisions on controversial items or whether or not rule changes are in effect or not. That is entirely up to the Jury and the and they alone will decide.
Please do not lose sight of the fact that measurers are not some sort of God with power over everyone, they are Quality Controllers and report what they see, within the rules. The OM at the Worlds, has a clearly defined role to play but ultimately the Jury has the final word
By the way, why do you assume it will be a man?.
Val

Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

Post by Antonio Espada » 21 Apr 2009, 23:29

Hi Valpro, Nigel and Hiljoball:
We thank both the information that ye me, and here's a little of what I know.
I am measurer since 1976.
Was part of the team that taught measuring gauges around the world who met in 1981 (approximately 40) with Tony Watts (R.I.P)as the highest representative of the then IYRU in the National School Sailing of Calanova in Palma de Mallorca.
Since then I have chaired the committee of about 10 measurement Spain Championships, 3 European Championships and 4 World Cup as Snipe, 470 and Finn.
In Bcn 92, I was responsible for controlling the test Lamboley to 470 (the only time that has been measured in class).
In the last World Cup Snipe in Oporto 2007, apart from participating in the Clinic, through the masts control.
Princesa Sofia in 2009, I was responsible for monitoring the 49er, and at mine, and by a rule that ISAF has repealed 9 days later to cause the disqualification of Mr. Bundock of Australia in the first 3 races, under an International Jury of no fewer than 24 International Judges.
So I think something like this I know.
Normally a jury, accepts as the best decisions he has taken by a measurer in the process because it NEVER INTERPRETS but simply APPLIES the rules.
To prove that Mr. Bundock, had violated the rule that prohibits using the so-called Olimpic Spinnaker, you had to rummage in the regulation G.5.1 rule (the one that invoked the Official Measurer of the class in an e-mail prior to the championship ). Until he is taught to act as chairperson of the hearing, Eva Anderson, spent the night of April 4,at 19 hours until the April 5, not reopened the judice, in which, and not include penalty alternative in the regulation for the breach of a rule, applied 3 DSQ.
If you followed my little speeches on the topic of the weights (forum rules), so I'm always asking for resolutions, which alone does not occur in the rulebook since 2004.
That's why I am wondering Who will be responsible for measuring the Barbados World?.
I would like to know your opinion on the three topics that I propose (there would be many more), and knowing his courage to make decisions with so many forums with many questions and no resolution.
Mr X (if you followed the theme of ISAF measurer, and would measure an Intergalactic Championship), is still pondering whether to build a tank, and if built, how. Organizing meetings among participants to know what rules apply, and we had to implement a "ray of paralyzing time," because if you do not risk the end of the time limit for holding the minimum evidence to make valid Championship.
No joke ... or someone with knowledge takes the rudder, or we will discuss the surface tension of water in Barbados, the temperature at which water has to be into the tank, or the sex of the Interplanetary species that are undiscovered.
So I repeat the question: Who will be responsible to give us your criteria? (if you can).
Pedantry that nobody can see in my words. Only experience, and something of common sense.
Finally, I apologize to all my English.
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Post by Hiljoball » 22 Apr 2009, 01:23

Hi Antonio, and Yes I can understand your English. Well done!

While I understand your point that the measurer may point out to the jury the applicable rules, the skipper also has the same right, in the hearing to point out the rules that he/she thinks are appropriate to the situation too.

The jury may decide to go reasearch whatever it chooses as background to making its decision, but the help of the measurer and skipper as to the appropriate sections of the rules is a great help to the jury.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

Post by Antonio Espada » 22 Apr 2009, 05:27

Of course the skipper has the right to tell the Jury his point of view.
But the measurer is part of AS OFFICIAL COMMITTEE OF RACE. As such, his opinion is usually greater than the Skipper
Basically, the skipper is solely responsible for YOUR BOAT IS UNDER THE RULES.
Do 'nt forget that the measurer's unique mission is to achieve the maximum equality between competitors at the starting line.
The jury, not interpret the rules. Hence the importance that they are clearer, as interpreted by decisions of the authority of the class.
Just what we have here.
In private mode, you can give examples of waivers granted "in extremis" by autority ISAF, for boats that breached a rule GROSS class, if not, they were completely out of action, and therefore were "not Snipe," " not 470 "," not Finn. "
If clear rules and regulations that have spent 40/75 years ... things ... one that "has just been born."
Regards.

P.D: By the way: In Palma, the makers of Class 6 measurter's ¡¡¡3 were women!!!
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

valpro
Posts: 119
Joined: 26 Sep 2004, 12:14
Location: GBR1511

Post by valpro » 22 Apr 2009, 10:05

Antonio, interesting that you too are one of the Tony Watts generation, the father of modern measuring and methods. Have you still got your IRYU Measurers Manual?
Of course the Measurer is a member of the Race Team at least and being responsible for the organisation and execution of the measuement is also a member of the Committee. Should there be a need by way of protest or arbitration, the Measurer will express an opinion or argue the case for or against the item in question before the jury or in discussion with the jury members in the lead up to the hearing. But ultimately it is for the Jury to decide.
But I see, with great pleasure, that you too appear to think that our rules could be clearer and simpler. So do I. As for your English, its fine. The meaning comes across which is what matters but it does remind me, once again, that where English is not the first language, reading the rules and talking about them is not always easy. After all, my husband speaks 4 languages but even he struggles at times with rules and instructions in English! I think we could make the rules easier and so reduce the problems with a bit of thought.
3 women measuring in Palma!!! WAY TO GO Italy!
Val

valpro
Posts: 119
Joined: 26 Sep 2004, 12:14
Location: GBR1511

Post by valpro » 22 Apr 2009, 11:34

Dear me! I must have been half asleep when I posted that! Sorry Alfonso.
It is of course
WAY TO GO SPAIN!!!!!
Val

Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

Post by Antonio Espada » 25 Apr 2009, 21:13

Of course I have the original manual for Tony in his first edition.
If you are interested, I can try to scan it and send it.
I speak 4 languages other than English, all Romance. So for me, it is difficult to express in English.

"I think we could make the rules easier and so reduces the problems with a bit of thought."

Totally agree.
Palma is in Mallorca-Spain-, and Germany seems even more by the number of Germans who are, of course NO ITALY.

I still have no answer to my question ... Is it that there is no measurer at world championship?
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

valpro
Posts: 119
Joined: 26 Sep 2004, 12:14
Location: GBR1511

Post by valpro » 25 Apr 2009, 22:00

Thanks Alfonso, I have two copies, my own and that from my second husband Ted May. I still consult them occasionally.
Val

Jan Dejmo
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Mar 2009, 08:51

Post by Jan Dejmo » 25 May 2009, 08:48

I might have mentioned this before in this forum, but reading this thread I take the risk of repeating myself. :-)

A couple of defined terms relating to measurement was changed by the introduction of the ERS 2005-2008. The reason for the changes was the frequent mix up of what happens at certification and what happens at event checks. It was very common that sailors pointed to "event stamps" on the sail when being asked about proof of certification. There could be long row up such stamps without the sail ever having been certified. The changes:

Equipment Inspection - previously "event measurement"

Equipment Inspector - previously "event measurer"

Certification Control - previously "fundamental measurement"

(Official Measurer remains the same)


PS. Antonio, we must have met at the IYRU Measurement Symposium in Palma de Mallorca in 1981 as I was there too!

Antonio Espada
Posts: 55
Joined: 25 May 2008, 12:37
Sail number: ESP 3
Club: NAUTICO VILANOVA
Design: ICEPICK
Location: BARCELONA-SPAIN

Post by Antonio Espada » 03 Jul 2009, 12:01

I can, now that it has completed the world cup who have been those that have measured the championship?

I saw a picture with a template to measure Sails: Is there any template approved by IOMICA?.

I hope this is not a template has been proposed as a maximum in this forum, because that would like to affirm that in this championship, have not measured the sails.

Regards
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

Post Reply