Measurers without borders

Discuss measuring an IOM and being a measurer

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cfwahl
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Measurers without borders

Post by cfwahl » 06 Mar 2005, 00:29

The ERS defines Official Measurer as "a person appointed or recognised, by the MNA of the country where control takes place, to carry out certification control."

May a measurer from Brobdignag (BRO) certify a boat registered in Lilliput (LIL), providing that this measurer is "appointed or recognised" by Lilliput's NCA?

Or, may a skipper whose boat is registrered in Lilliput have the boat measured in Brobdignag by a Brobdignagian, since that is the country where "control takes place"? I'm not sure, obviously, what that last phrase means.
Charles Wahl

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 06 Mar 2005, 20:28

May a measurer from Brobdignag (BRO) certify a boat registered in Lilliput (LIL), providing that this measurer is "appointed or recognised" by Lilliput's NCA?
Basically, NO, the measurer would not be following the rules.

I think we need to clarify a couple of points here.
First, if you intend to sail your previously registered IOM (ie. it has a hull registration number) regularly in a country other than where it is
presently registered, you should apply to the NCA of the new country for a new national hull registration number.
If the boat has a current certificate issued by another country/NCA, then you should also apply for a new certificate (see proceedure at IOMICA website-measurements section). And if you don't yet have a certificate then you will have to have your boat measured after getting your new registration number.
Secondly, the rules I think are quite clear in that only a measurer appointed/recognised by his/her country's NCA (or equivalent) can measure boats in that country. This refers to any measurement control needed for certification etc.
So..
may a skipper whose boat is registrered in Lilliput have the boat measured in Brobdignag by a Brobdignagian
....clearly the answer is no without getting and correctly displaying a new hull registration number from the Brobdignag NCA/registrar.
A measurer should first check that the hull in question has a valid registration number (of the country in question where the measurement is to take place) properly displayed before any measurement can take place. It is impossible to do a proper fundamental measurement for certification if there is no registration number present. It is the first thing the measurer needs to fill in on the Boat Measurement Form and it is also the very first question that is asked on the form.

I hope that this clears up your doubts.

happy measuring........[/u]
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

cfwahl
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Post by cfwahl » 07 Mar 2005, 03:49

VCmeasurement wrote:I hope that this clears up your doubts.
I wish it did, but unfortunately not . . .
VCmeasurement wrote:
May a measurer from Brobdignag (BRO) certify a boat registered in Lilliput (LIL), providing that this measurer is "appointed or recognised" by Lilliput's NCA?
Basically, NO, the measurer would not be following the rules.
But the ERS doesn't require that a measurer's needs to be a national of the MNA on whose behalf certification is being done. It simply says that the measurer needs to be recognized or appointed by that MNA. Here are the relevant definitions and rule that I know about, from the ERS:

C.4.2 Certification Control - Control for certification required by class rules, or a certification authority, which may include fundamental measurement.

C.4.4 Official Measurer - A person appointed or recognised, by the MNA of the country where the control takes place, to carry out certification control.

C.5.1 Certification Authority - For the hull, the ISAF, the MNA of the owner, or their delegates. For other items, the ISAF, the MNA in the country where the certification shall take place, or their delegates.

H.1.3 An official measurer shall only carry out certification control in another country with the prior agreement of the MNA for that country.

I think that H.1.3 makes it clear that a measurer's citizenship does not matter, provided that an MNA/NCA recognizes that person.
VCmeasurement wrote:I think we need to clarify a couple of points here.
First, if you intend to sail your previously registered IOM (ie. it has a hull registration number) regularly in a country other than where it is
presently registered, you should apply to the NCA of the new country for a new national hull registration number.

Secondly, the rules I think are quite clear in that only a measurer appointed/recognised by his/her country's NCA (or equivalent) can measure boats in that country. This refers to any measurement control needed for certification etc.

So..
may a skipper whose boat is registrered in Lilliput have the boat measured in Brobdignag by a Brobdignagian
....clearly the answer is no without getting and correctly displaying a new hull registration number from the Brobdignag NCA/registrar.

A measurer should first check that the hull in question has a valid registration number (of the country in question where the measurement is to take place) properly displayed before any measurement can take place. It is impossible to do a proper fundamental measurement for certification if there is no registration number present. It is the first thing the measurer needs to fill in on the Boat Measurement Form and it is also the very first question that is asked on the form.
I think that my second question confused things a bit. Your answer brings up a question I did not ask: given an owner's citizenship, and place of residence, is there a MNA with whom that owner's boat must properly be certified? I do not think that the ERS or RRS are clear about this, though there may be precedent, or ISAF/IOMICA regulations I'm not aware of. ERS C.5.1 above gives as options the ISAF, MNA of the owner, or their delegates. I don't see anything in the rules about where you live/sail, or where your citizenship is. Mayn't an owner choose his or her MNA? And, having certified with that MNA, can't an owner sail anywhere he or she chooses with that certified boat? RRS 75.1 certainly doesn't raise an impediment in that respect.

As a way of finding the answer to these, I suggest the following examples:

1. An owner who's a French citizen (FRA), with permanent residence in Windsor, Ontario (CAN), who normally races with and belongs to a club in Detroit, Michigan (USA). Owner belongs to both AMYA and CRYA, if that matters. Where does this person certify his or her boat, or does ISAF care?

2. For the purposes of discussion, let's say that ISAF requires the boat to be certified in the USA. There is no resident measurer in Detroit, but M. Owner is going to a regatta in Kingston, Ontario, where there is a measurer, and the USA NCA representative says that this measurer is recognized, for purposes of certification.

In this case, the applicability of ERS H.1.3 is pointing out what I was getting to in my original second question. Does the restriction mean that because measurement is physically happening on Canadian soil, but on behalf of the USA, the measurer needs _Canadian_ agreement? Doesn't really make sense. Or, does "[certification control] in" mean "on behalf of" rather than "located within"? In that case, the restriction makes sense: the Canadian measurer needs US agreement (recognition) to perform measurement.

I have not touched on the case where a skipper is excluded from an international event (because of national quotas and poor ranking), and thinks of certifying in Liberia (naval home to all our patriotic oil companies) to enter anyway. I realize that this is possibly an issue, but it is not the crux of my question. I am more concerned with (sneaky dealings aside) establishing what the options and restrictions are concerning national affiliation and measurement.

Thanks,
Charles Wahl

jandejmo
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Post by jandejmo » 07 Mar 2005, 23:13

Registration, certification control and certification are territory issues. ISAF regards the MNA as the sole authority for what happens in the MNA’s country and the ERS definitions and rules reflect this.

To carry out certification control the measurer has to be appointed or recognised by the MNA. In the latter case the official measurer is usually appointed by a class association or another MNA.

If a measurer wants to carry out certification control in another country the measurer must ask the MNA in that country to be recognised to do this. This happens especially in classes where special expertise is required to carry out the certification control.

Whether the MNA will register and/or certify a boat or hull (depending on the class) owned by somebody who is not a citizen, or where the certification control has been carried out in another country, is for the MNA to decide. Please note that the MNA can delegate these tasks and decisions to another body. For example I believe that US Sailing has appointed AMYA as certification authority for the international radio sailing classes.

Note also that an official measurer may certify parts of equipment such as sails but may not issue certificates.


Regards

Jan Dejmo

Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 08 Mar 2005, 06:54

I was also under the impression that if I, for example had a US member, with a registered boat (but not certified), travelling in Canada, and had his boat with him, who stumbled upon a local regatta and needed a Certificate, could (at my discretion) accept a measurement form from an official measurer from that country. The certificate is still within the owners country. If a measurer is qualified to measure a boat, there should be no reason not to help out a skipper in need.

In short, I am led to believe that an MNA can recognize, and accept measurement from an official measurer within another MNA.
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

jandejmo
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Post by jandejmo » 08 Mar 2005, 09:26

Let me use Steve’s example to illustrate some of the issues involved.

Terms in "bold" used as defined in the ERS. I forgot to mention this in my previous posting.

The US IOM sailor's MNA is US Sailing (USSA) and this role cannot be delegated. However I assume that USSA has delegated the role of certification authority for the IOM to AMYA, or to the US IOM Class Association.

When the certification authority receives the US IOM sailor's measurement forms it may chose to accept these but needs to satisfy itself that they are signed by a Canadian official measurer. I.e. a measurer appointed or recognised by the Canadian Yachting Association – the Canadian MNA. The Canadian Radio Yachting Association should be able to verify this.


Regards

Jan Dejmo

Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 08 Mar 2005, 16:18

Good topic, and good timing. There is an SUI skipper in the US that is actually requesting this happen. So far, it seems to be going as planned.
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

cfwahl
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Post by cfwahl » 09 Mar 2005, 04:23

Thanks to all. I would like to sum up; anyone please respond if I misstep:

1. An MNA (or its delegate) may, at its discretion, confer registration on an owner, irrespective of national citizenship.

2. For certification performed within the borders of that MNA, measurers must be appointed by or recognized by the MNA or delegate (but, as with an owner, the measurer is not required to be a citizen of the MNA country). [ERS C.4.4]

3. If measurement is to be performed outside the MNA's borders, the measurer must also be appointed or recognized by the MNA (or delegate) of the country in which measurement is performed. [ERS H.1.3]

4. An owner may hold only one certificate for a yacht at a time. [IOM Class Rules A.12.1]
Charles Wahl

jandejmo
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Joined: 25 Nov 2003, 08:47

Post by jandejmo » 09 Mar 2005, 20:09

Hi Charles


I would just like to rephrase 2 and 3:


2. For certification control, ERS C.4.2, performed within the borders of that MNA, measurers must be appointed by or recognized by the MNA (but, as with an owner, the measurer is not required to be a citizen of the MNA country). When so appointed or recognised the measurer becomes official measurer, ERS C.4.4.

An MNA cannot delegate its ERS C.4.4 authority but can e.g. decide that a measurer identified by an NCA is automatically recognised as an official measurer. An MNA can restrict the status to certain classes or parts of equipment.

An official measurer that wants to perform certification control in another country shall have prior agreement of the MNA of that country, ERS H.1.3. When getting such agreement the measurer is in fact recognised by the MNA and becomes an official measurers in that country, although temporarily.


3. For certification the procedure differs depending on whether it is a certificate that shall be issued or it is a part that shall be certified, ERS C.5.1 and C.5.2.

An MNA can delegate the role of certification authority, ERS C.5.1.


An ICA or an NCA may require that an official measurer shall be recognised by the class too, but this is not the case in the IOM as far as I know.

Please let me know if the above is not clear and I will make another attempt.


Regards

Jan

cfwahl
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Post by cfwahl » 13 Mar 2005, 01:33

jandejmo wrote:An official measurer that wants to perform certification control in another country shall have prior agreement of the MNA of that country, ERS H.1.3. When getting such agreement the measurer is in fact recognised by the MNA and becomes an official measurers in that country, although temporarily.
Why is the recognition temporary? Because the guest measurer is not resident, but leaves at some point? Put another way, what is the distinction between appointment and recognition, and is there an expiration on either (or does either status automatically lapse if it is not renewed on some periodic basis)?

Thanks,
Charles Wahl

jandejmo
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Joined: 25 Nov 2003, 08:47

Post by jandejmo » 13 Mar 2005, 02:10

Hi Charles
cfwahl wrote:Why is the recognition temporary?
When a measurer from another country asks for permission to undertake certifiction control it is usually to attend to a specific project. For example a boat or hull for which there is no official measurer with enough expertise within the country where the control is to take place.
cfwahl wrote:... what is the distinction between appointment and recognition, ...
I touched upon this in an earlier posting. "Appointed" is an official measurer who is appointed by the MNA. "Recognised" is an official measurer who is recognised by the MNA and usually appointed or identified by another body such as an NCA or another MNA.
cfwahl wrote:... is there an expiration on either (or does either status automatically lapse if it is not renewed on some periodic basis)?
This is something that is decided by each MNA. In my country licenses are valid until the issue of the next RRS and ERS. That is for a maximum of four years.

Regards

Jan
Last edited by jandejmo on 13 Mar 2005, 16:52, edited 2 times in total.

cfwahl
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Post by cfwahl » 13 Mar 2005, 16:10

jandejmo wrote:
cfwahl wrote:... is there an expiration on either (or does either status automatically lapse if it is not renewed on some periodic basis)?
This is something that is decided by each MNA. In my country licenses are valid until the issue of the next RRS and ERS. That is for a maximum of four years.
Hmm. Are measurers required to have a paper license from the MNA appointing or recognizing them? I wonder how many do.

Thanks for your answers,
Charles Wahl

jandejmo
Posts: 64
Joined: 25 Nov 2003, 08:47

Post by jandejmo » 13 Mar 2005, 16:50

cfwahl wrote: Hmm. Are measurers required to have a paper license from the MNA appointing or recognizing them? I wonder how many do.
As I mentioned before these are things the MNA decides about. In my country the radio sailing official measurers have an MNA "license card". In Canada CYA may have decided that all measurers identified by CRYA are automatically recognised as official measurers.

The important thing is that is should be possible for a certification authority about to issue a certifcate to verify that the certification control was actually undertaken by an official measurer. Or e.g. for a race committee anywhere in the world to verify that a certification mark on a sail was actually placed there by a genuine official measurer.


Regards

Jan

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 13 Mar 2005, 22:09

Or e.g. for a race committee anywhere in the world to verify that a certification mark on a sail was actually placed there by a genuine official measurer.
How could this be achieved? As far as I know, there is absolutely no way that a race committee in one country can know if the marks on the sail were placed there by an official measurer of another country. Even in the same country, race commitees at events don't have access to the signatures of all the official measurers of that country, even if there is a standard official 'stamp' that is used.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

jandejmo
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Joined: 25 Nov 2003, 08:47

Post by jandejmo » 14 Mar 2005, 00:21

Hi Roy
VCmeasurement wrote:As far as I know, there is absolutely no way that a race committee in one country can know if the marks on the sail were placed there by an official measurer of another country.
Normally there is a licence number which can be verified with the MNA. If e.g. there is on a sail only a signature and this signature cannot be traced, then the race committee can, and sometimes do, require re-certification.

But procedures vary from country to country and I expect that we over the coming years will see more standardisation and for example the possibility to verify official measurers at MNA web sites.


Regards

Jan

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 14 Mar 2005, 17:36

and I expect that we over the coming years will see more standardisation and for example the possibility to verify official measurers at MNA web sites.
Yes Jan, this is something that I think is important and possible for the future. With today's technology it is not at all difficult to have available the national certification marks and lists of official measurers for event organisers etc to consult via the web.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

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