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Discuss IOM design, building an IOM, information on suppliers, tuning an IOM, results of recent events, etc

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Mike Pickles
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New boy

Post by Mike Pickles » 13 Oct 2006, 20:40

Hi

I’m very conscious of being very new round here although I have been sitting in the background for a while.
I’ve decided to take the plunge and introduce myself and make some points that have occurred to me over the last couple of months of fence sitting.

Firstly a little background.
I’ve been sailing “bigâ€

Andy Stevenson
GBR NCA Officer
Posts: 772
Joined: 15 Sep 2005, 13:08
Location: UK

Post by Andy Stevenson » 14 Oct 2006, 00:51

Welcome aboard Mike

You make some interesting points.
[...]for the total newcomer, initial guidance on IOM or is it 1OM, is largely based on contacting your local Club.
It’s IOM, and yes, you’re right. In the UK particularly there isn’t much of an alternative to a local club for initial guidance. The MYA web site has improved dramatically in the last few years, but even they suggest you’re first port of call should be a local club.

This actually makes sense; radio sailing in the vast majority of cases quickly loses its appeal without some competition. You need sailing buddies, hence a club.
Frankly the cost is prohibitive
Well, it depends on what you want. If you want to be internationally competitive from the start then yes, you’ll probably have to throw a fair amount of money at it.
not knowing the difference between one design and another there is a risk of buying a dud
Second hand isn’t as hit and miss as you might think. One of the appeals of the IOM is that the class rules allow for a hull to remain competitive for quite some time. Second hand boats can be found on the MYA site & some of the forums.
there are a good number of sailors out there who would like to get an IOM but who do not necessarily want to join a model yacht club but I have no doubt that they would like to attend open meetings
Most of the more active clubs in the UK run open IOM events throughout the year & I’m fairly sure they don’t insist you’re a member of another club to enter. Check the MYA site for the calendar.
Would it be a good idea to create a register of sailors on a regional basis to establish whether there is sufficient interest in area’s where there is not an active club
That strikes me as an excellent idea! I suggest you contact the GBR NCA, Richard Rowen in the first instance. He’s the man for the IOM in the UK, and I know he’s been heavily involved in web resources and the like for the MYA. I’m sure he’d be interested in your ideas.
deck limit mark
It’s a datum from which the rig measurements are taken. You can place it where you like, so long as it’s on the centreline, near the mast and 5mm in diameter.

I hope this has been of some help.
MYA: http://www.mya-uk.org.uk/
GBR NCA: http://www.mya-uk.org.uk/iom-nca-gbr/home.htm

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Post by Hiljoball » 14 Oct 2006, 01:32

My background is somewhat similar. I used to race Marbleheads in the 1970's then went fullsize racing for 25 years. After retiring I am returning to R/C sailing. I did not want to spend 4 figures on an IOM, so I am building one from scratch.

From the MYA site, I downloaded the plans for the Triple Crown

For building information, I went to the AMYA site and downloaded the guide to build a US1M. This is a simple step by step approach that lends itself to the IOM.

http://www.modelyacht.org/us1mcons.html

To gain insight into design issues and sailing trim and many technical aspects of r/c sailing/racing check out Lester's site at

http://www.onemetre.net/

Hope this helps. Good luck
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Mike Pickles
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Thx

Post by Mike Pickles » 14 Oct 2006, 04:47

Many thanks for the replies.

I have saved a copy of the build guide and it looks very useful.

Recently I've started making a copy of a Javelin Dinghy which I intend to use as a training aid as I'll rig it in the same way as a full size boat, plus I'll have a little fun with her, only a shame she's 670cm long.
Image

This largely is what has got my juices running again so I'm tempted to make a boat like the Triple Crown.
Second hand isn’t as hit and miss as you might think. One of the appeals of the IOM is that the class rules allow for a hull to remain competitive for quite some time. Second hand boats can be found on the MYA site & some of the forums.
I had a look, starting at £200 for a Mallard and up to £1000 for the others plus with the size of the things I guess I would have to go and collect.
Still strikes me as a lot of money to find for a boat/design that you know very little about.
Well, it depends on what you want. If you want to be internationally competitive from the start then yes, you’ll probably have to throw a fair amount of money at it.
Not right away, may be in a month or so :lol:
Having said that I am competitive but under no illusion about how much of a learning curve there is in steering the thing round a course but it won't help if I buy a boat that inherintly won't point, nose dives or is just plain slow.
Most of the more active clubs in the UK run open IOM events throughout the year & I’m fairly sure they don’t insist you’re a member of another club to enter.
I do the open circuit and so my boat is either at an event or on the trailer at home ready to go to the next event.
It's just not worth taking her down to my local club, rigging her up, doing a club race or two, derigging and bringing her home ready to travel to the next Open.
The result being that most of us on the circuit do not belong to a club, just the Class Association.
My point was that I was wondering if this was likely to be the case in IOM especially if there is a shortage of clubs in your area.
An internet based club could well provide buddies to sail against.

As an aside I noticed a couple of boats were listed as being made from Kevlar.
Is this legal?

Cheers

Ralph Knowles
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Post by Ralph Knowles » 14 Oct 2006, 06:53

Mike,
Ah, Javelin dinghy. Been there done that. I built the first ever Javelin kit in the late '60s, No9, with no written instructions. Had a very large phone bill with frequent calls to Paul Wright in Essex. Great boat, well ahead of its time.
Now please don't hold the following statements against me, but some following comments may seem harsh, but true.
There is no way that a mini replica of a sailing dinghy, even though ballasted to a 'normal' waterline can ever sail satisfactorily under RC control, unless the hull draught is vastly increased. This is not only to accomodate the control gubbin's but to give boyancy to accomodate the required ballast keel. But then again, maybe your model is only to be a static one.
Your comments about the costs of an IOM needs a little bit of correction.
A second hand IOM maybe starts at about £200, but when you add up the costs of all the 'working' bits and pieces, then this is a bargain. To build a rig, #1,#2 or #3, each costs about £100 for all the bits. Normal fit out for normal all conditions sailing is a minimum of two rigs. Then we come to the internal 'bits', reciever,battery,winch, and steering servo. Not much change out of another £150 - 200. and this is before you take into concideration the hull. Hulls do not come off a mass production, two a minute, moulding machine. There is a mass of finicky hand work required and time is money. Fins and bulbs, another £70, are also hand made, in very small production runs. Be prepaired to have to spend at least £450 just to get your home built hull into the water. Remember, this is with new parts.

To compete in any MYA regional event, the competitor has to be a member of an affiliated club where part of his annual subscription is sent to the MYA as an affilliation fee. The MYA has limited funds and this the major income source. There are no paid officials. this disuades freeloaders from attempting to compete. I know that in the dinghy scene this practice is rife, but remember all the clubs that host regatta events have to pay affilliation fees to the RYA.

All IOMs will point if they are rigged and trimmed correctly. Thats part of the expertise gained after time in the sport.
I hope no offence is taken by the above , but some home truths need to be aired occationally

Ralph

Mike Pickles
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Post by Mike Pickles » 14 Oct 2006, 14:04

No offence is taken, the opposite in fact as I'd much rather read straight talking than woolly, generalised words.

The Javelin project is just me having a play really, not in any way a serious attempt at building a RC boat.
To compete in any MYA regional event, the competitor has to be a member of an affiliated club where part of his annual subscription is sent to the MYA as an affiliation fee.
So I can't join the MYA and sail under that banner, I have to join a club.
In that case is there a "virtual" club like the "RYA SC" which does not exist physically but its members are people who compete exclusively on the race circuits.

As far as cost is concerned it sounds like there’s a challenge to see how cheaply you can put a competitive IOM on the water.
I’m talking of the cost of the physical bits and not including time spent on the project which I well understand, in a commercial world, is where much of the money is.

I seem to remember there was a bottle boat some time ago, in an attempt to prove you could build an rc yacht on a budget.
I’m wondering if there is scope to do a similar exercise but end up with a IOM.

Lester
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Post by Lester » 14 Oct 2006, 14:14

Mike Pickles wrote:I’m wondering if there is scope to do a similar exercise but end up with a IOM.
Hi Mike

If you circulate on the open circuit, you will eventually come across the IOMs of Michael Scharmer (GER). Capable of winning an international event, yet completely home designed and built -- wooden booms, wooden mast (!!!), very simple hull and deck glass fibre mouldings, own build c/f fin and rudder, own build bulb, home-made sails from florist's cellophane wrapping film (!!!). Simply stunning.
Mike Pickles wrote:I have to join a club. In that case is there a "virtual" club
Well, you can join the MYA as an individual member. But one of the reasons to join a club is to secure third party legal liability cover, provided by your membership fee via an MYA national insurance policy. Though it is really rather unlikely that the sailing of a toy boat could cause grevious bodily harm to a bystander, many sailing venues will refuse you permission to sail unless to have such cover. They may well "disguise" this issue by refusing you permission to sail unless you are a MYA member through an MYA-affiliated club. Starting up a virtual club and affiliating it to the MYA sounds like an excellent idea!
Mike Pickles wrote:Frankly the cost is ... extortionate
Very harsh words! Certainly, an International class boat, internationally competitive, is not cheap. But I think it unfair to characterise this as "extortionate", with implications of outrageous commercial margins being forced upon completely unwilling buyers.
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Mike Pickles
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Post by Mike Pickles » 14 Oct 2006, 18:36

Very harsh words! Certainly, an International class boat, internationally competitive, is not cheap. But I think it unfair to characterise this as "extortionate", with implications of outrageous commercial margins being forced upon completely unwilling buyers.
I actually said "the cost is prohibitive and compared to model cars or planes, extortionate"

I concede however that perhaps my choice of words could have been a little less inflammatory but my point was that model yachting is, like it or not, in competition for new members with the other RC hobbies like cars, powerboats and planes and entry level costs into the most popular classes or types, is higher in model yachting than in the other forms.

I suppose the intended policy of accommodating people who,
Have relatively restricted budgets.
is as it states in the IOM introduction, just that – relative.
:)

peter spence
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Joined: 19 Nov 2003, 17:14

Post by peter spence » 16 Oct 2006, 11:30

I hold my hand up and admit I used to sail a Merlin many years ago under the RYA umbrella whilst in-between clubs for a couple of years

however, the problem with Virtual Clubs is that if we all join a Virtual Club, where are we actually going to sail? - we need proper clubs with an actual lake to sail on with real people to run the event :) - and proper clubs with real lakes need real members who contribute to their funds to help them survive

but being a member of a club doesnt mean you will be spending all your spare time behind the galley or on rescue boat duty :) - but the sport needs real cliubs, and real clubs need real paying members, even if they live an hour or so away

cheers

Peter GBR49

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 17 Oct 2006, 17:41

Hi, Mike.
Welcome aboard!
I noticed that you mentioned you still sail dinghy's. Are you a member of a sailing club at all? It may be possible for you to create an R/C division of your existing club, and form your relationship with MYA through them. Some "big boat" clubs have done the same here in the USA and Canada (and I'm sure in other countries as well), and it also creates local interest, which it appears you also need.
At any rate, even your long commute to find other IOM skippers will be worth your while until you get more local participation. My first multi IOM day was a 700 mile round trip for about 5 hours of sailing and it rained for half of that (yes, it does rain sometimes in California). I was ready to do it agian the following month, but I found a couple more boats, and just loaned them out to friends until I "hooked" them into wanting the boat for themselves. Any truly competitive sailor would love to have a go. If you build a boat, think about building 2 of the same together. Then you'll have one to loan. Next thing you know, you'll have a handfull of potential skippers asking you to build them one too!
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Peter_Nicholls
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IOM expensive or not?

Post by Peter_Nicholls » 17 Oct 2006, 17:44

I run a model shop in Gosport and would like to add my 2p worth to this thread,

Whilst I totally agree that if you want to be highly competitive in the IOM scene it can get very expensive, some skippers will spend well over £2000 to get their yacht built and ready for racing. the comparison between a bog standard trainer aircraft and a high performance yacht is, in my opinion unfair. If a pilot wishes to compete at national level or in open events he/she will be spending circa £2000 and more, a top level radio for aircraft use will cost over £500 alone.

I would gladly sell anyone a "trainer" IOM with 2 rigs for around £300 but what you all must realise is that it will not go cutting through the fleet leaving a 2 foot "rooster tail" its a trainer yacht!

I would not suggest that a new pilot spends thousands on a hobby he is unsure of, try it on a budget, if you like it and want to be competitive then go spend some money.

I have also noticed that at club level most yachts have a chance of finishing mid fleet with the odd high placing thrown in, 90% of winning races is in the tuning of your yacht, the way you skipper it and attention to detail, I sail a 1995 "Parasite" and have had some good placings at our club days and I've only been sailing for a couple of months, the yacht cost me under £300,

Budget sailing and very very enjoyable.

there are quite a few budget yachts coming into the IOM scene and they can be made even cheaper if you finish the build yourself.

Happy sailing

Mike Pickles
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Post by Mike Pickles » 17 Oct 2006, 19:29

Steve,
Thanks for the welcome.
I'll keep the Club idea in mind as I know there are at least five sailors there who would love to have a go at IOM sailing I just need to package it right. :)


Peter, point taken.

However I’m still struggling with how to encourage / justify the cost of getting into RC sailing.
I’ve sailed smaller and cheaper rc yachts than the IOM.
On the face of it you would say that these would be ideal for the beginner.
However having sailed a couple of these yachts I was left under whelmed and would guess that a significant percentage of people starting in these boats would drop the sport completely before making the plunge into the larger and far more fulfilling IOM, Marblehead etc.
So given that size really does matter, how do we make IOM a far more attractive proposition to newcomers?
In full size yachts you do have the opportunity to reduce or increase sail and this is mirrored with the a, b & c rigs but at a cost.
In dinghy racing, this option in most cases does not exist. Instead to reduce power we rake the rig, flatten sails and apply different sailing techniques and we adopt these and other strategies for when the wind goes light.
If the dinghy model were applied to IOM there would be a saving on two rigs, a slightly less powerful winch could be employed and foils, lead and rudder optimised for light to mid range winds.
What cost would a trainer IOM be?
If this idea was marketed well it could result in an increase in numbers and increases the likelihood of these newcomers to stay in the sport and upgrade their equipment.

Peter_Nicholls
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Post by Peter_Nicholls » 17 Oct 2006, 19:56

[quote]I’ve sailed smaller and cheaper rc yachts than the IOM.
On the face of it you would say that these would be ideal for the beginner.[quote]

Mike, just to clarify,

by trainer yacht I mean a half decent second hand IOM with all the ability to compete at club level. only yesterday I sold a "Tonic" with 3 rigs and RC gear including a nearly new K Bits hitech winch for £300, that yacht has the ability (in the right hands) to win races,

There are a great deal of skippers at club level that own 1st and 2nd generation IOMs they enjoy their hobby on a budget.

Wind power is free, charge the radio batteries and sail all day, you can not do that with nitro model cars or planes!

Another beauty of our hobby is the very low accident damage, I have flown aircraft and run nitro trucks, its very easy to break them and parts aren't cheap, aircraft have a habit of falling out of the sky, cars career of at break neck speed, an out of control yacht is going nowhere fast.

There are going to be some new designs hit the market soon, they are very reasonably priced. two to note are the "Sphincter" (Swedish design) and the "Logic" (Cornish) there is also a new yacht on the market at present the "Lintel" by Dave Creed.

All of these yachts can be built on a budget

Muzza
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Location: USA 274

Post by Muzza » 17 Oct 2006, 20:51

Successful initiatives to encourage entry to the class via a budget route can be taken at club level. All that is needed is to pick a design that is in the public domain, or obtain one from a designer, build some club molds, and provide club support to prospective owners via, say, building workshops, volume purchase of components and materials, and maybe even get set up to make sails within the club. Assuming a given location does not preclude it, any club could have a restricted class within the IOM rules – say all boats from the club mold and limit of A & B rig. If a competitive design is chosen, then you can hook in sailors while still providing an upgrade path to IOM events outside the club.

Such a cooperative approach, assuming club members have the skills and workshop resources available, could produce a club built IOM, including A and B rig, servos and club-made sails, for no more than about USD$600 – even cheaper still if you economize on some of the rigging components. Of that cost, a significant part is in the sail servo itself – but a club could go the Hitec digital sail-arm servo route, and combine forces on a servo programmer. Add the radio of your choice and you are away at a very modest cost.

I said above “all that is neededâ€
Murray Buckman
USA 274

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Olivier Cohen
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 17 Oct 2006, 22:09

To reduce cost, we launch in France a subclass called "Echo" like cheap and hoping to make noise around IOM.

Limitations are : 3 possible hulls, 2 easy to build and the windstar for people that wan't to buy, no carbon allowed in fin and rudder, thickness of fin and rudder limited, mast diameter above 12mm, no ballbearings, and a few more details. More info (in French sorry) here http://www.classe1metre.org/site/IOM%20 ... lement.pdf

They will be a challenge open to newcomers, or sailors who weren''t in the 70 best french in our ranking for last 2 years. This challenge will be promoted by NCA, and the prize (if money is found) will allow the winner to buy a regular IOM.

What do you think of it?

Mike Pickles
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Post by Mike Pickles » 18 Oct 2006, 03:18

In dinghy racing we have similar problems.
The UK scene is flooded with different Classes, all vying to gain members from what appears to be an ever reducing pool of sailors.
Like the US model yachting scene, this has led to dilution and the established and older classes, not backed by the corporate marketing might of Laser, Topper International or RS, have had to fight really hard to stop themselves becoming extinct.

My boat, built in 2003, cost £8000 and we did the fitting out.
We’re ranked No2 in UK and 4th in the world so the boat is pretty high spec.
A similar spec boat fitted out by P&B would be £12 to £14k.
A newcomer to our class will not fork out anywhere near that unless they are top sailors moving from another class.
So our Class association bought up three old boats at an average cost of £400 each and a few of us spent a little time and spent around £100 each sorting them out.
We then used them as Class promotion boats, where anyone who wished to have a go could use them for £20 an Open.
If memory serves I think these boats were lent out about 12 times over 2004 – 2005.
The next issue was that we had a shortage of second-hand boats at around the £1000 mark so we ended up having to sell the promo boats for £500 each to three of the keen newcomers.
End result is we have three new, keen, members, one of which, a year on, has put in an order for a new boat.
One of the other boats has had around £500 spent on it and came 2nd in a recent open and the other has had well over a £1000 spent on her and the owners are as happy as pigs in …… and two other couples who managed to find their own second hand boats, one of which had to be collected from Germany.
We are now on the lookout for a couple of old boats to carry out a similar process.
The strategy cost the class nothing other than a couple of weekends work by a few committee members.
Compare this to our normal spending of £600 per year for a stand at the dinghy show and £900 per year on advertising, both of which have not attracted any new people, as a direct result, into the class in the last 5 years.

Our active class is small, with only 200 or so boats racing in the world and I know the amount of money is differnt and that I'm talking about a two man, 17'6" trapeze racing dinghy but I still think there are some Interesting parallels.

Dan Crowley
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Post by Dan Crowley » 20 Oct 2006, 01:10

Off topic a bit...but does anyone have any pictures of that Swedish Sphincter?

edmorales

Post by edmorales » 20 Oct 2006, 03:47


joey
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Post by joey » 22 Oct 2006, 08:32

Hi all,

Just this week I have received my own "Sphincter" from Sweden. :D
All the moulding look pretty good and for EURO 390.- incl. shipping it is not too expensive. The kit comes inclusief the Bulb, carbon rudder and fin, bow bumper, servo tray and fin box (fin box and servo tray do not look so great, I think I will be using Sailetc fin box). So the building can start now! Hakan, the builder is a great guy, very helpfull and fast delivery. I for see a great future for this design, it already just looks fast!

Check out the site www.sphincter.se

Image

Cheers, Joey
Joey Rijs
PIKANTO
NED 02 - 2.4GHz

nick lin
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Post by nick lin » 23 Oct 2006, 03:05

Just curious, but what does "Sphincter" mean in Swedish?

ole_peder
NOR NCA Officer
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Post by ole_peder » 24 Oct 2006, 01:15

The following is copied from the Sphinchter homepage

"The name Sphincter comes from the eye contraction muscle,
called spincter pupillae. Since I am an optician working with
eyes this felt this was a suitable name."
Ole Peder Bjørsom
Chairman NOR NCA

cfwahl
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Post by cfwahl » 24 Oct 2006, 01:50

Actually, I asked Håkan Grönvall about this, and he is quite aware that there are other anatomic features named sphincters -- it's just a joke that's a bit drier than usual, heh heh.
Charles Wahl

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