IOM in ISAF

Discuss IOM design, building an IOM, information on suppliers, tuning an IOM, results of recent events, etc

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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 28 Aug 2009, 21:33

Jan: As always, thanks for the prompt and concise response. It is a great start to hopefully a great discussion on this forum among our members.

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
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Post by Alfonso » 28 Aug 2009, 21:52

RoyL wrote:4. I do think it is appropriate to hear from our class leaders as to their opinion of what they think are the advantages and disadvantages of direct ISAF affiliation for IOMICA. Particularly how they view the "consequences" of the rights and obligations imposed and granted by such a relationship.
Roy648 wrote:... could you please detail in the one post the following:

A: The driving factors behind IOM Class Affiliation with ISAF.
B: The positive factors (advantages) of such.
C: The negative factors (disadvantages) of such.
D: The associated risks
I think that the position of the Exec, the advantages and disadvantages, etc. have been explained in this document http://www.iomclass.org/exec/isaf/IOM_i ... sion_1.pdf

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 28 Aug 2009, 22:58

Alfonso: Both on the link you posted and in the link on the home page, the document you reference, (at least on my Mac), is blank. Am I doing something wrong?

Update: Not sure what happened; the document is now viewable. Might have been a firewall problem.

BTW, could someone identify who was the author(s) of this document and does it reflect the unified view of the entire current IOMICA Executive? It is always good to sign your work....
Last edited by RoyL on 29 Aug 2009, 03:08, edited 2 times in total.

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 29 Aug 2009, 00:26

Alphonso - nice document.

Where has this discussion been taking place? I looked and cannot find reference to it on the web site.
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 29 Aug 2009, 03:02

No comment, just direction.

On the front page of the website the first item in print is the first part of the announcement to owners. At the bottom of that is a is a link noted by "Read the rest of this entry" which takes you to the full note. At the bottom of that are two more links that take you to the Pro/Con description and to the letter sent to ISAF.

The Pro/Con thing is a PDF which should be readable by most any system with Adobe Reader (any version should work).

The submission document is also in PDF format.

If you can't get to the full text of the owner notification then you won't have seen the other links.

All of these were posted at the same time, on or about August 7th.

The process used is, to the best of my knowledge, consistent with other postings done previously.

If you can't see all of the documents please let me know via PM or direct email and I will send you copies directly.

I make no claims about having any Mac expertise but I have one available to me and was able to open all of those documents via Safari.

If you need more help with these please let us know.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 29 Aug 2009, 06:28

Thanks Barry
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 03 Sep 2009, 06:40

I have recently spent some time looking through the ISAF website. A few things sort of jumped out at me.

First, it appears that a class when it is affiliated with ISAF (although entitled to attend ISAF meetings) is specifically not entitled to voting rights. Anyone know if this is correct?

Second, it appears that in order to be a measurer for an ISAF class you need to attend at least annually an ISAF measurement seminar. I am also not sure what other qualifications are necessary to be a measurer. How will this affect the IOM class? I don't believe many IOM measurers in many countries are officially certified or trained by ISAF.

Third, if the IOM class wants to apply for membership to ISAF or becomes a member, does a class representative have to attend the ISAF annual meetings? These can be in different places each year (I think this year it is in Pusan?). If we have to or should attend these meetings who will bear the costs of travel?

Fourth, there is nothing in the ISAF website about RSD being dissolved (in fact it seems to have been re-confirmed in May, 2009) or IOMICA losing its right to hold world championships. There isn't even anything that seems to indicate that if IOMICA joins ISAF directly it will still not be governed in whole or in part by RSD. Does anyone have any hard information in this area?

Finally, I am starting to feel like we should not rush into an agreement with ISAF without all the facts. I think joining today and then finding out later that we can not really fulfill the requirements of ISAF class status or withdrawing for any reason, will dramatically set back r/c sailing for years to come.

I don't see any downside to waiting and getting a complete understanding of what we are signing on for and allowing the various national authorities time to have full discussions and solicit votes from their members.

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Post by Lester » 03 Sep 2009, 08:44

RoyL wrote:I have recently spent some time looking through the ISAF website. A few things sort of jumped out at me.
Hi Roy

Some interesting points, thanks.
First, it appears that a class when it is affiliated with ISAF (although entitled to attend ISAF meetings) is specifically not entitled to voting rights. Anyone know if this is correct?
Can you give us a reference to this, please? The relevant section in the ISAF Regulations, for example. It doesn't sound correct.
Second, it appears that in order to be a measurer for an ISAF class you need to attend at least annually an ISAF measurement seminar. I am also not sure what other qualifications are necessary to be a measurer. How will this affect the IOM class? I don't believe many IOM measurers in many countries are officially certified or trained by ISAF.
I think you were reading about being an International Measurer, and not about just 'being a measurer for the class' at your local pond. Where were you reading about this? What was the relevant section in the ISAF Regulations?

Certainly, I would expect that the IOMICA Executive's Vice Chairman Measurement will need to be an IM in due course, and this would be a change in current arrangements. An IM is an ISAF appointment, and to be an IM you need to meet certain ISAF requirements. A number of (full-size) classes share IMs, and one way to handle this requirement is to have an IM from, say, the 505 class also be the IM for the IOM.
Third, if the IOM class wants to apply for membership to ISAF or becomes a member, does a class representative have to attend the ISAF annual meetings? These can be in different places each year (I think this year it is in Pusan?). If we have to or should attend these meetings who will bear the costs of travel?
I don't think a class rep 'has to' attend. I'm pretty confident that proxies are acceptable. To put this into perspective, if RSD had been operating 'normally', IOMICA would have been expected to attend the RSD General Assemblies.
Fourth, there is nothing in the ISAF website about RSD being dissolved (in fact it seems to have been re-confirmed in May, 2009)
Re-confirmed? Hadn't heard about that. Where were you reading about this? What was the relevant URL?
... or IOMICA losing its right to hold world championships.
To be fair, I don't think anyone has suggested that the IOM has lost its WC. The suggestion is that it will, if RSD dissolves.
There isn't even anything that seems to indicate that if IOMICA joins ISAF directly it will still not be governed in whole or in part by RSD. Does anyone have any hard information in this area?
I don't know if this counts as 'hard information' on something that doesn't exist, but it is certain that if the IOM class would become an ISAF class, it would then come under ISAF jurisdiction as explained in the ISAF Regulations, and RSD would have nothing to do with it.
I don't see any downside to waiting and getting a complete understanding of what we are signing on for and allowing the various national authorities time to have full discussions and solicit votes from their members.
Certainly we don't want to rush into anything without all the facts. I think the debate is about whether we have all the facts, and you are doing a good job here.

The downside, of course, is that RSD is currently non-functional. While you were VC Technical on the Exec, you refused to recognise RSD's right to approve the recent attempts at Class Rule changes. This is not a good situation for the class, to have such uncertainty and dispute about its governing authority.

The final decision probably also must wait until the future of RSD itself becomes clear. I understand you are a nomination for the next RSD Permanent Committee, and so will be able to give us the inside track there. We look forward to your views on whether RSD is the legitimate approvals authority for the IOM after you join the PC.
Lester Gilbert
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Alfonso
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Post by Alfonso » 03 Sep 2009, 10:57

RoyL wrote:I don't see any downside to waiting and getting a complete understanding of what we are signing on for and allowing the various national authorities time to have full discussions and solicit votes from their members
Roy, I don't think we are running, it is true that we had to run a little bit to fulfil the application form in time, but now we have plenty of time to talk about the issue before owners take the decision; and thanks to people like you, that take your time to read ISAF Regulations and make questions, I am sure that when we will vote we all will have a very clear idea of what will mean being an international class recognized by ISAF .

valpro
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Post by valpro » 05 Sep 2009, 10:47

The matter of costs is not limited to what we have to negotiate with ISAF at this point. Being an International class brings with it 'on-costs' too which no-one has mentioned yet. For instance, the class would be obliged to have at least 1 International Measurer, who would need expenses paid, probably a stipend and, to fulfil the duties of the post, would need to travel to Major events as well. That means travel and subsistence, accommodation and feeding. I know what that cost 505 during my term and, as we are an association without individual subscriptions, where would that money come from. If ISAF officials attend our meetings, will we get a bill (probably, since it is not a charitable organisation).
I get the distinct feeling that the goal here is the crowning achievement of joining ISAF. Like a wedding, the wedding day is almost incidental and what follows is important. So it is with this. we can rush to join and then find out the true costs of being an International class or we can explore them now and get the whole picture.
Further, the class was started with a loan from RSD and if we go our separate way, will that loan have to be repaid and if so what would our bank balance look like then?
So it's not as simple as people like Lester and Jan would have you believe.
I can get an idea from my contacts with existing International classes if that is your collective wish and I think that could be valuable information.
And before anyone speculates, no I dont want to be your IM.
Val

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Post by Lester » 05 Sep 2009, 19:33

Hi Val

Some useful observations, thanks.
valpro wrote:'on-costs' which no-one has mentioned yet. For instance,
You provide a 'for instance'. It would be very helpful if you could also let us know all the other costs which have not yet been mentioned, so we could all get the full picture.

Just to rehearse what has already been mentioned in the IOMICA briefing document available for download from the IOMICA Web site (link is "Brief explication to the owners", http://www.iomclass.org/2009/08/07/appl ... /#more-159) entitled "IOMICA Direct Affiliation With ISAF Discussion Document 1":
IOMICA Discussion document wrote:PROS
 IOM ICA will have the right to hold a World Championship (see ISAF Regulations 18.2).
 IOM ICA may appoint one member to the ISAF Classes Committee and as such have a vote and voice in the world governing body.
 Owners will not lose their ISAF eligibility when taking part in any one metre race sanctioned by ISAF.
 The application fee of 1000 pounds will be waived.
 Certainty on the future of the class.
 Effective, authoritative technical approval of Class Rule changes and interpretations made in accordance with principles valid for other ISAF classes.

CONS
 IOM ICA will have to pay a subscription fee of 165 pounds per year
 New certificated boats after 1st January 2010 will have to pay a fee of around 5 pounds
 Measurement and measurers must be organized with relevant parts of ISAF Regulation 26.5
What specifically has been left off this list, please? I think the measurements issue is on it.
the class would be obliged to have at least 1 International Measurer
Erm, no, not quite. The class is *obliged* to have "Official Measurers", a somewhat different kind of person. The class is *asked* to have some of its Official Measurers qualified as International Measurers. Perhaps this is a good time to consider the actual wording of the ISAF regulation. The whole of 26.5 is quite long, so these are what I take to be the relevant sections:
ISAF Regulations wrote:26.5 To maintain its ISAF designation an International Class shall:
(g) ensure that its equipment control procedures properly maintain the objectives of the class rules and shall:
(v) keep all Official Measurers approved for the class informed with respect to class rule changes and interpretations, and, if practical:
1. have sufficient ISAF recognized class International Measurers (see Regulation 35) to represent the class regionally;
The key phrase buried in all this is "if practical". I have not the slightest doubt about ISAF's flexibility and willingness to consider proposals for arrangements which the IOM Class may wish to make with regard to the practicalities of Official IOM Class Measurers.
If ISAF officials attend our meetings, will we get a bill
Why would ISAF want to attend an IOMICA meeting? On what grounds might ISAF oblige the IOM Class to pay for an ISAF Official attending any IOMICA meeting, which are in any case electronic?
will that loan have to be repaid and if so what would our bank balance look like then?
Well, the Treasurer's report to the IOMICA AGM gives the details as far as I can see. The loan is around AUS$ 330, and it would hardly make a dent in IOMICA finances which stand at around AUS$ 11,000. I understand that you are a nominee to the RSD Permanent Committee, so you too will be able to give IOMICA the inside track in due course.
So it's not as simple as people like Lester and Jan would have you believe.
It might even be simpler (smile).
Lester Gilbert
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valpro
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Post by valpro » 05 Sep 2009, 20:48

I will make some enquiries as to the costs involved in being an International class, since this seems to be Lester's wish at least and then we can have an purely objective viewpoint.
To make things clearer, the function of an IM is not to measure on a regular basis but to train and keep Official Measurers up to date with rules, changes and precedent. Where controversy or non compliant goods are involved the IM may be required to attend on the maker/supplier and carry out a survey with a view to clarification or resolution of the perceived problem, reporting back to the class technical functionaries as necessary. In an International Class this is a pivotal role which ensures consistency of measurement and also supports the measurers, most of whom are working in isolation.
And Lester, I note that the wording of 26.5 includes the word 'shall' which makes the appointment of IMs mandatory in an International class.
Val

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Post by Lester » 05 Sep 2009, 21:47

Hi Val

No one disputes the importance of an International Class having IMs. The question is, how much would this cost the IOM class, not whether the class should have them.

The wording of 26.5 is 'shall ... if practical'.
Lester Gilbert
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Alfonso
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Post by Alfonso » 05 Sep 2009, 23:19

Hi Val,

Thank you for your comments. I understand that you are concerned because being an international class recognized by ISAF can have some costs, specially those regarding the International Measurer as it has been explained in this document http://www.iomclass.org/exec/isaf/IOM_i ... sion_1.pdf My personal opinion is that probably the cost of attending the ISAF Equipment Inspection Symposium is the highest of all of the costs that we have identify and one of the possible solution that we have found is to share the Class International Measurer with other class so we also can share the cost of the trip.

Another possible solution is to send the IM closer to the city where the Symposium is going to take place, but probably taking into account your experience you have other ideas.

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 10 Sep 2009, 04:52

I did another quick look at the ISAF website. Sections 81 and 82 of the ISAF Constitution seems to read that as an independent class we would not be entitled to a vote in the ISAF general assembly and be entitled to representation on ISAF committees only as permitted by ISAF regulations.

Has something else been promised or am I missing something? These limitations don't seem to be reflected in the IOMICA discussion document.

Also, has anyone checked if the ISAF drug testing provisions would also now apply to our World and Continental Championships? Will that be a new responsibility of the IOMICA Exec to collect our winner's "pee in a cup" (lol)

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Post by Lester » 10 Sep 2009, 11:16

The ISAF 'General Assembly' meets approximately every four years, and offers general policy recommendations to the executive body of ISAF, the ISAF Council. It is a body of all the MNAs who talk about ISAF in general.

The ISAF Council is the place where business is conducted at the highest level, since it is the ISAF body which makes Regulations. It is a body of selected MNA representatives as well as the senior executive officers of ISAF. As far as I can see, the Classes Committee is one of only two ISAF committees which has representation on the Council, and the IOM would be a member of the Classes Committee, just like Lasers, Optimists, 505s, J20s, etc.
Lester Gilbert
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 10 Sep 2009, 15:55

But, we keep being told that by joining ISAF we will get a "vote" and a "seat at the table". Membership on the Classes Committee, which then has selected representatives sit on the ISAF Council (not likely IOMICA), isn't quite that.

At least for me, the more I look at the ISAF website and their published governing documents, the less I'm clear as to what specific rights we are getting and what obligations we have to undertake.

For example, do the current ISAF regulations automatically give IOMICA a seat on the Classes Committee or could ISAF, for example, decide to have all of radio sailing be represented by RSD?

Has anything been specifically said to IOMICA by ISAF or negotiated? Or is the situation still as suggested earlier, "join now unconditionally, and negotiate/discuss/clarify after"?

So far from everything I've seen here and earlier, IOMICA's "direct" relationship with ISAF has been handled by the most junior person on the paid ISAF staff. Is this the reality of how things will work going forward?

Finally, is there even a summary of the rule and regulation changes IOMICA will have to make to join ISAF for the membership to evaluate before being asked to decide the issue?

[/list]

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Post by Lester » 10 Sep 2009, 21:51

This is what we know about the IOM becoming an ISAF International class as explained in the IOMICA discussion document (which summarises everything the membership needs for its evaluation):

The IOM ICA will:
- have submission rights to the ISAF Council (eg, proposals for Appendix E changes and updates)
- have the right to a seat on the ISAF Classes Committee
- have the right to hold a World Championship
- be consulted by ISAF when Appendix E changes are proposed by others
- be consulted by ISAF when other changes which would affect the class are proposed, such as to the Advertising Code, and to ISAF eligibility

ISAF have told IOM ICA:
- the application fee of 1000 pounds will be waived
- the subscription fee will be 165 pounds per year
- new certificated boats will have to pay a fee of around 5 pounds

The ISAF Regulation 26 explains in clear, comprehensive, and consistent detail what an International class needs to do (and the IOM class pretty much does it all). The only area not currently covered by IOMICA to ISAF standards concerns class Official Measurers as explained in other posts to this thread.
Lester Gilbert
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 10 Sep 2009, 23:07

Doesn't it presume a little to suggest that the IOMICA discussion document as put forth by the Executive "summarises everything the membership needs for its evaluation"?

Is it possible that there might be a few other questions people might legitimately have?

As I mentioned earlier, I, for example, would like to see the proposed changes in our class rules, constitution, and various regulations mandated by direct IOMICA ISAF affiliation.

I would also like further clarification on the measurement question, on who will "control" IOMICA at ISAF and particularly how this will effect relations between IOM sailors and various national authorities (like US or Australian Sailing).

I believe there are also a few others here who have raised questions about a proposed IOMICA/ISAF agreement the answers to which might also be "useful" to members "evaluation" even if not strictly "needed" (lol)

Finally, I was kind of hoping for some official response to my questions by the Exec, unless of course, Lester you are currently representing IOMICA in its dealings with ISAF?

jandejmo
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Post by jandejmo » 11 Sep 2009, 07:58

Hi Roy


As you know I try to answer questions about how ISAF works.
RoyL wrote:I would also like further clarification on the measurement question, on who will "control" IOMICA at ISAF and particularly how this will effect relations between IOM sailors and various national authorities (like US or Australian Sailing).
I am afraid that I do not understand your question. Could you try to clarify?


From an earlier post of yours:
RoyL wrote:Also, has anyone checked if the ISAF drug testing provisions would also now apply to our World and Continental Championships? Will that be a new responsibility of the IOMICA Exec to collect our winner's "pee in a cup" (lol)
This is governed by Rule 5 - ANTI DOPING in the Racing Rules of Sailing: "A competitor shall comply with the World Anti-Doping Code, the rules of the World Anti-Doping Agency, and ISAF Regulation 21, Anti-Doping Code. An alleged or actual breach of this rule shall be dealt with under Regulation 21. It shall not be grounds for a protest and rule 63.1 does not apply."

In practice I don't think you have to worry about this until you start up your Olympic Games campaign.


Regards

Jan

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Post by Lester » 11 Sep 2009, 11:26

RoyL wrote:IOMICA's "direct" relationship with ISAF has been handled by the most junior person on the paid ISAF staff. Is this the reality of how things will work going forward?
Here are some better questions to ask.

Who is the person on the ISAF staff most knowledgeable about radio sailing and the IOM class?

Who is the person on the ISAF staff who is asked by Chairs of ISAF committees and by senior ISAF Officials for briefings and authoritative information about how radio sailing and the IOM class might relate to ISAF?

Who is the person on the ISAF staff who is the strongest friend of radio sailing and the IOM class (that is, assuming they do not reconsider their position after wondering why they should be subject to the above uncalled-for, unjustified, cretinous, loathesome slur and attack on their status, credibility, integrity, and authority)?
Lester Gilbert
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 11 Sep 2009, 16:52

Excuse me please!!! How does taking notice of the fact that in the ISAF organization chart the person we are dealing with is in a very junior position become a "slur and attack" plus "uncalled for, unjustified, cretinous, loathesome" etc.

I raised the point initially because in thirty years of experience with business, I have found that better results are usually achieved in dealing with the "top" of any organization, not the "bottom". Also because usually whoever you are referred to in an organization, often is a good indicator of your perceived status. (A meeting with a corporate president or a department head is different than a meeting with an assistant or a staffer).

Any attack is frankly in your mind Mr. Gilbert....
Last edited by RoyL on 11 Sep 2009, 22:15, edited 2 times in total.

valpro
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Post by valpro » 11 Sep 2009, 20:25

Lester, before you burst a blood vessel, just calm down and take a breather. It may well be that the youthful and boyish good looks of Henry Thorpe hide years of radio sailing experience, however as it seems that no-one outside of yourself and Jan have had any dealings with him and he is not known to be an active radio sailor, you can hardly be surprised if his authority is questioned. As your meetings with him are not minuted or the regularity and frequency of those meetings known you must expect
these questions. He is the most junior staffer in the Technical Dept and without a track record in Radio Sailing why shouldn't people like Bruce and myself ask these questions. And just because people do ask, that doesn't justify your response. In my experience, like Roy, it is better to start with the top of the organisation rather than get the message diluted in transit. If Henry is the paragon you say he is, then get him out into the open and lend him one of your boats so we can all see and meet him. That would be a pleasure on both sides I'm sure. And if you or the university hasn't got a spare one, I'm sure one could be found for him to try. Get a grip Lester, learn to work patiently with people. I find it gets better results generally.
Val

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Post by Nigel » 11 Sep 2009, 23:20

I think before anybody here goes of the cliff they should consider a couple of things:

1.) this is an open forum i.e. anybody including the person mentioned can read this - hmmmmmmm :oops:

2.) we are talking about rc toy boats - Stop making this matter look as if it's a life threatening issue or an activity that is changing the world. :roll: On a global scale we are talking about a few thousand active sailors. Talk to ISAF about e.g. the Laser fleet and you know where we are on their agenda. Talk to FIFA about sailing and you know where we stand, we are a minority with in a minority. :wink:

So just all relax and enjoy IOMs for what they are. A good reason to meet people at the weekend, sail around some marks and go to the pub for a beer afterwards - not more and not less. OK, some skippers fly to Barbados or other far away places but they go for fun just the same.



By the way, why does the IOM ICA Forum not have a moderator that can halt some of these discussions before they go to far???
Nigel Winkley
GER 87

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 12 Sep 2009, 19:13

All right, let's try to look at it this way---today, if IOMICA wants to change its rules or has a technical question it is subject to review and approval of RSD. RSD can even over ride a vote of all of our members. I've never liked this set up.

If we become directly affiliated with ISAF does this change? Is a decision of the class on its rules and regulations final or is it subject to review and approval by ISAF?

And if ISAF does get to approve or modify our decisions, who actually does it for ISAF? A person? A committee? Do we have a right of appeal? Consultation? What standards are applied?

Frankly, as much as I never liked allowing RSD to have a veto over the will of the class membership, I don't know if we would be better off or not with someone at ISAF having the same power. Not sure if that would be any real change or if it would be better.

Finally, in trying to understand the situation with RSD and ISAF, it now seems clear that ISAF does not intend to dissolve RSD. If that is the case, (and assuming there is a properly elected slate of RSD officers) what happens to the "agreement" between RSD and IOMICA? I don't think IOMICA can terminate it on its own. If that agreement stays in place, and IOMICA reports to RSD, what have we gained by a direct affiliation with ISAF?

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
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Post by Alfonso » 14 Sep 2009, 18:29

RoyL,

If owners decide to affiliate ISAF our Constitution will read as follow:

3.2 In furtherance of these objects the IOM ICA shall:
3.2.3 Promulgate and review the IOM Class Rules, in association with the ISAF.

Now we have to read ISAF Regulations 26.11 to know what ISAF says about Class Rules change, but I am sure that you already know. My idea is that if the owners want to change the rules to add a spinnaker to the boat then the ISAF just will take care that all the changes are made respecting the standard of the ERS.

Finally, regarding your considerations between the relationship between ISAF and RSD, my personal opinion is that according with the experience of previous years there are not many people trying to work for RSD so I think that the best for the future of the class is to affiliate ISAF directly.

valpro
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Post by valpro » 14 Sep 2009, 20:57

Alfonso, could you please clarify exactly what you mean by not many people working for RSD. When there is a willing volunteer for every post on the RSD PC in the upcoming vote I think your comment may be a little premature.
Val

Roy648
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Post by Roy648 » 14 Sep 2009, 23:14

Hi Jan,

I have scanned ISAF Reg 21 and obviously missed something. I would appreciate your help in clarifying for me.
Scope
These Anti-Doping Rules shall apply to ISAF, each Member National Authority (MNA) of ISAF, and each participant in the activities of ISAF or any of its MNAs by virtue of the participant's membership, accreditation, or participation in ISAF, its MNAs, or their activities or events. Any person who is not a member of a MNA and who fulfills the requirements to be part of the ISAF registered testing pool, must become a member of the person's MNA, and must make himself or herself available for testing, at least twelve months before participating in international events or events of his/her MNA.
I do not see there that Reg 21 applies only to Olympic Classes.

Regards
Roy Granich

RoyL
Posts: 705
Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 21:03

Post by RoyL » 14 Sep 2009, 23:33

Alfonso: Thanks for the answer, but the more I look at the ISAF rules and regulations the more confused I get.

First, ISAF rules, Section 26, seems to say that a formal agreement between a prospective class and ISAF must be signed. Is this correct? Is there a draft of this agreement? Does IOMICA need to vote on this?

Second, that same section seems to require a class to used "best efforts" (in legal times that is a very, very high standard) to cause its members to join the relevant National Authority. Does this mean "big boat" national organizations like US Sailing/Sail Australia etc. or model boat national authorities like AMYA or MYA?

Third, Section 26.11 seems to say that any changes to our class rules are to be governed by the ISAF Class Rules Subcommittee. Do we have any information on how this process works in practice? How often are submissions made? How often approved? What is the role of the ISAF, Ltd. staff vs. the Committee?

Fourth, a change in the IOMICA constitution that says the class shall "promulgate and review the class rules, in association with ISAF" seems circular. If we have to change our class rules to join ISAF, and the class has to vote on all class rule changes, then don't we have to first propose the rule changes and vote on them before joining ISAF?

Fifth, in looking at Section 26, the class obligations to certify measurers and to maintain international juries at major events seem pretty solid. This would seem to add costs to these events making them even harder for many countries to pull off.

Sixth, and finally, I'm also not exactly sure what you are saying about RSD. I have always argued that while RSD does not currently have properly elected officers, RSD's agreement with IOMICA is still valid. If we directly affiliate with ISAF does that agreement/authority go away? If so, how? If it doesn't go away, then doesn't IOMICA still have to report to RSD?

Again, I'm really trying to understand what we are leaping into particularly if we have to make this choice in the next few weeks.

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 15 Sep 2009, 07:17

RoyL

Since IOMICA has not announced the date of the AGM and any resolutions have to be received 10 weeks in advance of said meeting, we don't seem to have to make any decisions in a few weeks if the ISAF issue is to be voted upon at the 2010 AGM.

The EXEC has the right to call a "Special" meeting with 6 weeks notice. Although not specified, there does not appear to be a mechanism for World Council members to submit proposals to a "Special" meeting, so I assume such a meeting would only deal with agenda items proposed by the EXEC. Even if this method were used to put the ISAF membership issue before the general membership for a vote, it still allows a fair amount of time for discussion.

As I have suggested in the past, if we could please set a regularly scheduled date for our Annual General Meetings, some of the uncertainty surrounding when decisions (votes) have to be made would be eliminated. While many folks like this idea, the EXEC has neither discussed it nor acted upon it (at least on the portion of this board visible to the general membership).
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

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