More than one Rig of a size on a certificate?

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Roy Thompson
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More than one Rig of a size on a certificate?

Post by Roy Thompson » 26 Nov 2007, 23:37

Is it possible to measure 2 No1 rigs (for example) and add them both to a single current valid or new certificate? If not, what specific rules prevent this?
I can see that if you are transfering rigs from one boat to another they would be removed from one certificate, but can they be added to another certificate if that cert. already has a number 1 rig?
It is not clear at all that I can see.

Regards

Roy Thompson,
Responsable for Measurements and Rules, ESP IOM NCA
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Andy Stevenson
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Post by Andy Stevenson » 27 Nov 2007, 00:53

Hi Roy,

This is just my personal opinion, and I’m not 100% sure but...
CR A.11.3 wrote:Upon receipt of a satisfactorily completed measurement form(s)[...]
The boat MF has facility for 3 rigs only, one of each. It would be feasible to complete a boat MF with less than the normal 3 rigs (Interpretation 2005-IOM-1), but not more.

It would seem to follow then that the answer to your question is: no, you can’t certify a boat with more than one number 1 (or 2, or 3) rig and the rule that prevents you doing it is A.11.3.

Hopefully some of our more technical / measurement oriented owners will be along shortly to confirm all this or point out my glaring error :)

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

ralph kelley
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Post by ralph kelley » 27 Nov 2007, 17:08

Andy:

Sorry to differ but I do not read A.11.3 to be restrictive as to the number of rigs that is needed to get a certification, either a minimum or a maximum. Clearly there is an implication that at least one rig is required but that is not specifically spelled out in the wording. However the hull measurement form allows 1, 2 or 3 rig measurements to be attached to the hull MF so as to get a certification, but the wording of A.11 (Certification) is clearly relating to the hull.

Moreover, the logic that one is restricted to owning only on rig of each size, and having it measured and submitted to the National Authority is flawed. Measurement of a new rig for an existing hull is done all the time, when someone gets a new set of sails for an existing hull, gets a new spar for alternative methods of rigging the sails, adding mast bend and so forth.

And if I were going to a major regatta with a lot at stake, I would take more than one A rig in case I had a problem, such as a ripped sail. The backup rig would only be submitted to the regatta authority for approval in that specific regatta the regatta if needed, but it would have already been approved dimensionally by the home measurer so it's acceptance would be approved quickly.

Or with two A rigs, one might have one with ultra light sails and another with heavier sails, and then select one over another if the regatta was expected to be extremely light or border line heavy weather.

In a similar situation, the boat MF does not restrict the owner to only one keel or rudder to get a certification. Rule A.13.1.c does not apply since the keel and rudder are not actually dimensionally measured or weighed as part of the original certification process (but are done for a specific regatta).

We measure rigs independent of the hull all the time.

Ralph

Hiljoball
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Post by Hiljoball » 27 Nov 2007, 17:14

Having reread the class rules and measurement forms several times, I cannot see any reason to prevent filing multiple sail measurement forms for a hull. And there is no reason I can see to change the rules to prevent this. I see it as a 'good thing'.

The class rules prevent sail swapping on a given rig at an event. However the rules provide a procedure to allow a sail to be changed if damaged at an event.

So if you had several sails measured, and you damage a sail, you could bring out an already measured and certified sail as a replacement.
John Ball
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Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 27 Nov 2007, 19:07

I think you may be missing the point. On the 'certificate' (which clearly identifies and relates to the hull) there are three boxes, one for each of the 3 sized rigs. There is no way I can see that an 'extra' rig can be added without removing the first rig. It says 'tick' the boxes, not 'state how many rigs of each size are attached to this certificate/hull'. The cert also specifically says that a new cert may be issued when new sails are added to the cert, but it doesn't metion what happens to the old sails - do they stay on there???
Of course, there is nothing to identify the sails/rigs. Sails can be changed and as long as they are certified they are legal, but the meaurers date stamp on the sail would be completely diferent to that of the certificate - a giveaway.
If what we want is to allow is multiple sails/rigs to be used with one hull (I think we can all agree that is what happens in reality and we would want it to be that way), then there should be completely seperate 'certificates' for the hull and each rig, with some form of identifying the rig 8stamp and number etc.). A tiny bit of extra 'paper' and you could go to an event with all the rigs measured and certified and like you say, choose which you want to use before event measurement.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 27 Nov 2007, 21:44

Maybe, this could be stretching it but, the answer is to certify the hull (which is all that the form really addresses anyway) and not check any of those boxes. It doesn't really say they need to be checked.

Then you can present forms for each rig or set of rigs that you may create.

A kind of interesting thought, again maybe, is that the rig form seems to imply that the mast, booms, etc. presented for measuring are indeed a set and it doesn't look like there is maybe an allowance for sails by themselves to be measured and certified and then another implication that the sails and hardware will only ever be used together as a unit. So now the hardware needs to be stamped as well and somehow noted as tied to a particular set of sails!!!

Maybe we need to have a hull and rig hardware form and then certify the sails themselves completely seperately.

It gets convoluted pretty quickly though.
Barry Fox
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Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 28 Nov 2007, 00:21

the answer is to certify the hull (which is all that the form really addresses anyway) and not check any of those boxes. It doesn't really say they need to be checked
That is basically the interprpretation of 2005 of IOMICA. BUT - the certificate itself says you can only race with the rigs shown on the certificate. That means no rig boxes checked, no sailing.
The certificate also says that to have new rigs added, they should be measured, the forms sent to your C.A and they may issue a new certificate.
Ok, up to there fine, but if my certificate already has the No1 rig box ticked and I send a new set of No1 rig measurement forms? What happens? The new cert is issued but what happens to the 'old' No1 rig? Is it actually 'taken off' the certificate? I think not. There is no way to know which sails are attached, old or new (except the date and stamp of the measurer on the sail and the date of the Certificate which should coincide I guess but this sort of links the sails to a hull again which is what we want to avoid).

IOMICA (Andy - please can you point this out to VC Tech and VC Measurements) - Please give us an idea whether A12.1.c limits us to use only one SPECIFIC rig of each size with a hull - ie.- the rig that was certified. If we issue another certificate because we have changed sails, the old certificate (and hence the measured sails on it??) becomes invalid so you couldn't then use them with that hull, no???

And IOMICA - please think about separating rig and hull certificates. Clearly it is what is happening in reality and IOMICA need to respond. During my work with IOMICA it came up over and over, and it looks like it is still there.
We measure rigs independent of the hull all the time.
Ralph - I guess you reisue you certificates all the time also then, according to the certificate it is needed if you add (change?) rigs. Or maybe the use of the word 'may issue a new certificate' is the key here...
In a similar situation, the boat MF does not restrict the owner to only one keel or rudder to get a certification
I beg to differ Ralph. The hull MF says 'the keel' not 'the keels'. The use of the singular is critical here.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Andy Stevenson
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Post by Andy Stevenson » 28 Nov 2007, 01:32

Double post removed...
Last edited by Andy Stevenson on 28 Nov 2007, 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
Andy Stevenson
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Andy Stevenson
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Post by Andy Stevenson » 28 Nov 2007, 01:34

Hi Roy,

I’ll make sure VC Tech & VC Measurement are listening...

Having thought about it, I see it like this:

A new boat is issued a Certificate on submission of at least the Boat MF. For that boat to be a great deal of use a Rig MF with at least one rig measured will need to accompany, or follow the Boat MF.

On receipt of a Boat MF the IOM Registrar issues a certificate, if a Rig MF accompanies the Boat MF then the Certificate has one or more rig boxes checked. If no Rig MF accompanies the Boat MF, and the registrar hasn’t been informed that the new boat will be registered with the Rigs from a previous boat, then a Certificate is issued with no rig boxes checked (This seems a little daft, it’ll be a very slow IOM! But possible none the less I think).

If a rig MF subsequently follows, the Registrar may issue a new Certificate, with rig boxes checked, that invalidates the original certificate.

Now the boat gets a new set of sails, they are measured and the Rig MF sent to the registrar who may issue a new Certificate, invalidating the previous certificate.

I suspect most registrars don’t in fact issue new Certificates; rather they record the latest details & leave the owner with the existing Certificate. No unreasonable I think.

So my thinking is that you’re right when you say:
If we issue another certificate because we have changed sails, the old certificate (and hence the measured sails on it??) becomes invalid so you couldn't then use them with that hull, no???
This means of course that you can only compete with the latest set of measured rigs, those used to obtain your Certificate. You can carry spare spars, sails etc., and use them as prescribed by CR C.7 & C.8, but I don’t think you can have another full set of rigs measured & ready to use if you wish.

If that were the case what’s to stop me turning up at an event with 9 rigs, 3 top, 3 middle & 3 bottom, each designed for the top, middle & bottom of each rigs wind range? All of a sudden I’ve tripled the outlay required, and I still need spares for them!

As I said previously, this is just the way I see it, I’ll try to get Roy & Mike involved.

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

Andy Stevenson
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Post by Andy Stevenson » 28 Nov 2007, 02:03

Hi Ralph,
Sorry to differ
Blimey! Don’t be sorry, the whole point of a conversation is to offer differing opinions, yours are most welcome.
I do not read A.11.3 to be restrictive as to the number of rigs that is needed to get a certification
Neither do I, as Roy has pointed out, the Certificate does that by only having 3 boxes for rigs.
[...]but the wording of A.11 (Certification) is clearly relating to the hull.
I can’t agree with that, every section of A.11 uses “form(s)â€
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 28 Nov 2007, 07:02

I am definately on the other side of the fence here. Once a boat is measured and certificated, it is the responsibility of the owner to keep it in compliance with the rule. The owner is allowed to do maintenance on his boat. Let's not bog down the system with unwarranted measurements and certifications.
For instance: my mast is 2 pieces. The stock comes from the same manufacturer. If my bottom section strips a hole in the gooseneck area, I'm simply going to change it out. The bands will go back where they belong, and the gooseneck will be screwed in. NO ONE will ever know the difference, and I am not trying to pull a fast one by changing it out to an illegal material. I'm simply keeping my boat maintained. If I need to change a shroud or a turnbuckle, I'm simpy going to change it. As long as the rig has been measured, and the boat has a certificate, who cares?
As has been mentioned before many times, if someone WANTS to cheat, they will cheat, and you probably will not catch them. Let the honest ones be, and just go sailing.
Even if a complete rig from last year has been hanging on the wall, it is still a legal rig. It was measured, signed, and certificated. If I want to pull it off the shelf and use it tomorrow, why would this be illegal now when it was legal yesterday?
Steve Landeau
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Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 28 Nov 2007, 07:40

In reality, most of us have multiple rigs and use them on the same boat. In my opinion, the hull measurement form should only apply to the hull without mention of specific rigs. Rigs are measured individually by an official measurer and should be stamped and signed by him/her.

If we remove mention of rigs on the hull measurement form and require that some sort of official stamp be placed on each rig as it is measured by the measurer we (hopefully) assure that each hull and each rig is in compliance. As long as all equipment is certified to be legal, there should be no problems with whatever combination of hull/rigs the skipper chooses to use.

In reality, there is no practical way of assuring that the rigs measured (and boxes checked) with the hull are always used with that hull. With sails being as fragile and consumable as they are, we ought to allow owners to "mix and match" rigs and hulls as long as they are legal items.

I suppose that RC's could mark the 3 rigs that skippers choose to use in an individual regatta to prevent switching them indiscriminatly during an event in addition to the official measurement stamp.

I do not feel that additional paperwork is needed for the rigs - simply an official measurement stamp. In fact, we could do away with the paperwork associated with the hull measurement forms by having the hulls also stamped by the measurer at the time of initial measurement or re-measurement in cases of significant changes to the hull.

This brings up another point - perhaps we should compile some sort of common measurement procedure that all official measurers use to certify rigs and hulls to assure uniformity in the process required to get a rig or a hull "stamped".

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 28 Nov 2007, 08:39

Bruce said
This brings up another point - perhaps we should compile some sort of common measurement procedure that all official measurers use to certify rigs and hulls to assure uniformity in the process required to get a rig or a hull "stamped".
I think this is called 'Measurement Forms' Bruce...

Steve said
Even if a complete rig from last year has been hanging on the wall, it is still a legal rig. It was measured, signed, and certificated. If I want to pull it off the shelf and use it tomorrow, why would this be illegal now when it was legal yesterday
Steve - I can only see a problem if you want to use these sails on a hull , which is certificated, but was not certificated with those particular sails. In that case you would, theoretically, need to have a new cert issued. If you intend using them on the same hull as a year ago, no problem.
I suppose that RC's could mark the 3 rigs that skippers choose to use in an individual regatta to prevent switching them indiscriminatly during an event in addition to the official measurement stamp.
At least in Spain, one of the main jobs of the Event Measurer is exactly this - placing an equipment limitation of use mark on sails, keel, rudder etc and checking that they are not changed during the event (except for breakages ec. Does this not happen everywhere?

Bruce said
If we remove mention of rigs on the hull measurement form and require that some sort of official stamp be placed on each rig as it is measured by the measurer we (hopefully) assure that each hull and each rig is in compliance
In Spain this already happens. The Official Measurer stamps, signs and dates the sail when they pass measurement for a certificate. This is totally independant of any limitation mark during an event.

I think all of this points in one direction: Sail certification control is not standardized and the rules are wooly to say the least. We want to be able to swap rigs between hulls. It would only take some minor rule modifications to make it perfectly clear that it is legal - at present I fear it is not so, although it is clear everyone does swap rigs (read 'sails).
Roy Thompson
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Olivier Cohen
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 28 Nov 2007, 10:22

Steve Landeau wrote:I am definately on the other side of the fence here. Once a boat is measured and certificated, it is the responsibility of the owner to keep it in compliance with the rule. The owner is allowed to do maintenance on his boat. Let's not bog down the system with unwarranted measurements and certifications.
For instance: my mast is 2 pieces. The stock comes from the same manufacturer. If my bottom section strips a hole in the gooseneck area, I'm simply going to change it out. The bands will go back where they belong, and the gooseneck will be screwed in. NO ONE will ever know the difference, and I am not trying to pull a fast one by changing it out to an illegal material. I'm simply keeping my boat maintained. If I need to change a shroud or a turnbuckle, I'm simpy going to change it. As long as the rig has been measured, and the boat has a certificate, who cares?
As has been mentioned before many times, if someone WANTS to cheat, they will cheat, and you probably will not catch them. Let the honest ones be, and just go sailing.
Even if a complete rig from last year has been hanging on the wall, it is still a legal rig. It was measured, signed, and certificated. If I want to pull it off the shelf and use it tomorrow, why would this be illegal now when it was legal yesterday?
I totally agree with that, almost everyone has multiple rigs, but uses only one per size at an event. In France it's sometimes difficult to find a measurer, if we had to make a new hull certificate for each sail change, we would never sail!

If you go that way, you need a new certificate if you change battery from nimh to lipo and so add lead in your hull? Or if you sand your boat?

Each owner has to make sure that his boat complies with the rules, that's the only way.

Lester
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Post by Lester » 28 Nov 2007, 14:49

Much depends on the meaning we might give to the notes on the Boat Certificate.
IOM Boat Certificate wrote:Measured rigs and its sails [Check boxes] 1 2 3
NB - Certification Authority: Cross out number and box of un-measured rigs and its sails - tick box for measured rigs and its sails.
NB - Crew: Only rigs and its sails shown on this certificate are permitted for racing.
NB - Owner: To have rigs and its sails added to this certificate you shall have the equipment measured by an official
measurer and send the completed measurement forms with this certificate and any re-certification fee that may
be required to the certification authority who may then issue a new certificate.
In particular, what is meant by the note, "Only rigs and its sails shown on this certificate are permitted"? I have a slightly broader understanding, along the following lines.

In order for a boat to be given a Certificate, the Owner must submit a Hull Measurement Form to the Certification Authority (CA), and the Certificate can then be issued. Rigs and sails need to be measured and their measurement forms need to be sent to the CA as well. At this point, the boat has a Certificate with one or more of its boxes checked, and it can go racing.

I understand the wording, "Only rigs and its sails shown on this certificate" to mean that, if you have not submitted a MF for Rig 2, then you cannot race with a number 2 rig. That is, the wording of the certificate is only intended to control the rigs you can race with, and does not control the *specific* rig and sails whose MF you submitted previously.

This is because what is shown on the Certificate is a simple check box next to the symbol "1", "2", and "3". The Certificate does not in fact show anything about the rigs and sails whose MF you might have submitted, only the bare fact that a "Rig 1" or whatever MF has been submitted...

From this, I have no problem thinking that, once I have the "Rig 1" box checked on my Certificate, I can turn up at an event with any of the five or six number 1 rigs I happen to have and go racing (provided, of course, that the rig and its sails have been measured at some time, and have been maintained and repaired in a way that keeps them within the rules).

However,
IOM Class Rules wrote:C.8 SAILS
C.8.1 MAINTENANCE
Routine maintenance such as replacement of battens and patching over
damaged areas is permitted without re-measurement and re-certification.
I think this means that if my "routine maintenance" involves replacing an old sail with a new one, I need to have the result re-measured, and I need to submit the MF to the CA.

It is here that I think the Class Rules might need improvement. As far as I can see, if I replace an old sail with a new one, all I should need to do is to have the *sail*, not the rig, re-measured, and all I should need is for the sail to show the signature of the measurer in the tack, rather than have to submit a new MF to the CA.

Finally, there is no "Maintenance" heading in section C of the Class Rules for Rigs, and I think it needs some words here. At present, my understanding is that if you build a new rig, you need to submit a new MF to the CA for that new rig. Now this is something you don't hear about very often... (smile)
Lester Gilbert
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