Battery Weight & Placement

Discuss the IOM class rules and interpretations

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valpro
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Post by valpro » 09 Mar 2009, 23:00

In the big boat classes I measure, corrector weights are required to be fastened to the boat. Various rules specify the means - maybe bonding or bolting or screwing - but it is quite clear that they are intended to be fixed and immovable. Most rules even specify where they have to be fixed.
We have the freedom, as well as the necessity, to place the ballast in position to trim the boat correctly as per the design waterplane. Now explain to me why our miniature racers, using the same rule format, measurement methods, ERS and terminology should be any different to their bigger sisters, The rule is quite clear enough. The correctors shall be fixed and the batteries shall be replaced in the same position.
Val

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Olivier Cohen
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 10 Mar 2009, 09:26

I have now a light mast (below 100g) on my boat, with weights in the hull to comply with the 4 kg limit.

If I change my mast for an heavier/stiffer one, how may I remove part of my corrector weights if they were permanently fixed?

I use velcro to fix those weights, and it is my responsibility as owner to confirm that my boat comply with rules. If a measurer wants to be sure that I don't move it during an event, he could make marks with a pen going across weight and hull.

I have seen that "velcro" solution on many boats, including in WC and EC.

So please don't change something that works now in the rules...

Another point : When I take a plane with my boat, I remove the weights so they don't destroy everything inside...

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Post by RoyL » 10 Mar 2009, 15:38

Hard to follow the logic here. Corrector Weights need to be removable so that they don't damage the boat when flying? But if the weights were permanently attached to the boat how could they come loose? As to your velcro suggestion please explain how attachment with velcro is "fixed" or "permanent". Seems just the opposite to me. Seeing other boats not in compliance with the rules certainly doesn't make the practice legal. As to your "heavier" mast question, if you were running two different masts, perhaps you should put some weight in the butt of the lighter mast not the boat?

Finally, no one here is talking about changing the rules except you. As suggested earlier, the rules are pretty clear on this one. However, if you think corrector weights should be able to be adjusted, moved and removed, I have no problem whatsoever. Simply have an NCA make a motion and let the class vote the idea up or down.

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Olivier Cohen
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 10 Mar 2009, 17:14

Roy, I'm sorry if I disturb your logic, but if I need to add 200g of lead in my hull, I don't want to put lead + a certain huge amount of resin to be sure it stays in place.

I was in Marseille and Dubrovnik, and no measurer had ever discussed anything on my corrector weights fixing.

The example of a heavier mast wasn't certainly a good one, but a new heavier paint would be.

And I don't move my weights during an event, so I comply with what is currently in rules.

If no one wants to change the rules, why did you start that post??

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Post by RoyL » 10 Mar 2009, 20:09

This thread was started to discuss the issue of battery placement and weight. It was not about corrector weights. I personally don't think the corrector weight rules need to be changed. They are totally clear to me.

I believe that attachment of corrector weights by velcro is not legal under the current rules. To the extent you have cleared measurement in the past, I would not expect you would do so at the current worlds (if you are attending) since this issue has now been brought to everyone's attention.

Finally, I suggest if this is something you believe should be allowed, that a rule change proposal should be made by an NCA. At the very least, you could start a new thread here and get a sense what others in the class think and do.

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Olivier Cohen
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 10 Mar 2009, 21:04

Unfortunately, I can't attend this WC, Barbados is too far for me. But next year there will be an EC!

If a measurer requires something, I will glue my corrector weights, but as Alfonso asks earlier, what is fixed enough for you?
1 point of glue, or 20 grams of glue?

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Post by valpro » 10 Mar 2009, 21:44

Do what Graham Bantock does, wrap the lead in a bit of deck patch cloth and stick it in place with a bit of silicone. That way you can get at the lead by cutting away the cloth if you want to reduce or add to it and if you want to get it out then release it from the deck patch and then you can clean out the silicone more easily.
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 10 Mar 2009, 21:47

Thanks Val, but he sticks it with silicone? The same silicone as for bumpers?

It is strong enough?

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Post by Lester » 12 Mar 2009, 23:19

Can we come back to the pont of this topic...

My boat's draft might be 415 mm, and it might weigh 4.1 kg in 'normal' trim. What is the rule which prevents me from using a heavier battery pack at the next event such that its draft becomes 416 mm and its weight rises to 4.5 kg?
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 18 Mar 2009, 14:39

If by "event" your mean the series of heats that we call a "race", then it would seem that the controlling rule is that you are required to use the same weight batteries from the start to the finish of that event. What you can't do during that event is use batteries not of "similar" weight. Between "events", that is when you have the boat at home you can do anything you want to the boat (so long as it does not run afoul of local decency laws, lol).

If you decide to use a series of battery packs for an event that are heavier than the batteries you used in prior events, I suppose the critical question would be is does the re-configured boat pass event measurement. If it does than you should be "good to go". Of course, this doesn't answer the question of what happens when you use a different battery pack at an event where there is no event measurement. I would think you have a problem because you as the owner no longer know if your boat still meets the class requirements. Of course, if everyone had a tank and a precision scale at home this wouldn't be an issue.

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Post by wim bakker » 18 Mar 2009, 14:52

Olivier
I use silicone kit from the DIY store.
The waterproof, no fungus, variety that is used in bathrooms.
It fixes the lead in my boat very well to the hull/ finbox
Unlike Graham B, I do not wrap it in deck cover material
I assure you that it is quite difficult, but certainly not impossible, to remove

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Post by Lester » 18 Mar 2009, 17:02

.
Roy, I'm using the RRS to define the terms, and the IOM Class Rules to tell me when I can change things in the boat:
Appendix E wrote: E1.1 Terminology
[...] For ‘race’ used as a noun outside this appendix and outside Appendix A read ‘heat’. In this appendix, a race consists of one or more heats and is completed when the last heat in the race is finished. An ‘event’ consists of one or more races.
RRS Definitions wrote:Racing
A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks
IOM Class Rules Part II wrote:The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing
Class Rules Section C wrote:C.5.3 REMOTE CONTROL EQUIPMENT
USE
((d) Remote control and/or related equipment if temporarily removed and or replaced:
(1) shall be refitted in the same position.
(2) shall be replaced by equipment of similar weight.
I think we have agreed that a boat is not racing while she is not in a heat, and she is only racing while she *is* in a heat.

I think we have agreed that the Class Rules apply only when the boat is racing.

I think we have agreed that batteries must be refitted in the same position by items of similar weight when the boat is racing.

So I would conclude that, when a boat is not racing, she can replace her batteries in a different position using equipment of different weight.

And I think we have agreed that, subsequent to any such replacement or repositioning, the boat needs to be class legal in her next heat.
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 18 Mar 2009, 20:37

Lester I do not agree with your conclusions and I think once again you have gone too deep into the literal words of the rules.

During a series of "heats" that we designate a "race", I believe that a competitor can only replace his battery, receiver etc, with equipment of similar size and weight in the same position. This applies at all times that the boat is racing.

Now I suppose that between heats if you have a bigger or smaller battery that you want to use to test functions or keep the electronics powered up that will be fine. But, you can not put your boat back into the next heat of the race or event with that dissimilar battery. The "similar" equipment must be the same as the last heat the boat was in.

So, my conclusion is you can not use the breaks between heats to substitute new and different radio equipment and batteries and then use that equipment in the next "heat" of that "race" and still be legal.

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Post by Lester » 19 Mar 2009, 23:23

RoyL wrote:I think once again you have gone too deep into the literal words of the rules
Hi Roy

I think you have, once again, taken an insufficiently 'deep' understanding of the words of the rules (whatever that might mean).
you can not put your boat back into the next heat of the race or event with that dissimilar battery
There is a difference between 'race' and 'event', and so it is not valid to say 'race or event' as though they were the same or equivalent things. It is possible to read the rules in a way that suggests you cannot go into the next heat of your race with a dissimilar battery. It is not possible to read the rules to suggest that you cannot go into the next race of the event with a dissimilar battery. The rules only apply while you are racing.
you can not use the breaks between heats to substitute new and different radio equipment and batteries and then use that equipment in the next "heat" of that "race" and still be legal.
We are talking here, of course, about the situation if you have been promoted. This is the only circumstance when you could be going into the next heat of your race. And I agree with you, it is possible to read the rules in this way. This is how I read them for a short while before Barry straightened us out.

Barry has pointed out that competitors cannot receive outside assistance while racing, yet this is what usually happens between heats. I thought we had agreed that Barry was right, and the the rules only applied while racing, and not in-between heats, even if you are promoted and your two heats constitute a single race.

So if you are not racing in-between heats, you can change your batteries quite freely (as long as your boat otherwise remains class legal). The rules only apply while racing.

The rules only apply while racing. This is what the introduction to the IOM class rules say. The rules only apply while racing. Racing is what happens between the prep signal and clearing the finish line. At other times the rules do not apply. I don't think there is any unusual depth to the use of these words. There is an unusual repetitive theme to my post, of course, because I'm trying to encourage you to read what the rules actually say rather than what you wish them to say. Check it out in the Introduction to the IOM Class Rules: 'The rules of Part II only apply while racing'. The whole of Part II. Including Section C.
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Post by RoyL » 20 Mar 2009, 03:51

Not everyone sees the world the same way. Not everyone reads the rules the same way. So lets leave this as reasonable people can disagree.

Oh, and one other cautionary note for anyone taking this too seriously-- there is an old saying that if you look at things hard enough and close enough and often enough you begin to move into tighter and tighter concentric circles until you vanish up your own....

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Post by Dick Carver » 20 Mar 2009, 05:20

<< The rules only apply while racing.... Racing is what happens between the prep signal and clearing the finish line. 'The rules of Part II only apply while racing'. The whole of Part II. >>

Uhh.... not quite.
The rules limiting the replacement of appendages (C.6.2), rigs (C.7.1) and sails (C.8.2) apply during an EVENT.
Dick Carver

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Post by Lester » 20 Mar 2009, 09:39

Dick Carver wrote:The rules limiting the replacement of appendages (C.6.2), rigs (C.7.1) and sails (C.8.2) apply during an EVENT.
Hi Dick

Well spotted! So where necessary, those rules which apply during an event say so. The other rules therefore apply while racing...
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Post by jeolla » 21 Mar 2009, 17:57

Why not let people play with placement of weights or batteries ? IOM is basically a box rule . As long a flotation test don't offend with 1000/420/60 mm rules and 4000/2500g min weights, who cares?
This would however mean the presence of a tank for at least more important races.
JEOLLA

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 21 Mar 2009, 20:51

In principal there are a number of areas involving moving weights that could be interesting to play with. Personally, I would love to be able to have a light air and heavy air fin/bulb that I can change during an event. Also would love to be able to move my corrector weights and battery and bulb (both angle and position) during an event to meet changing conditions. In the best of all world's I would also really like to have an adjustable backstay, carbon fiber mast, changeable light and heavy air A suits, telemetry, adjustable outhauls, jib trim and a movable trim tab.

However, this isn't what the class rules presently allows. If change is wanted, ask your NCA to put forth a proposal and let's all vote.

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Post by valpro » 21 Mar 2009, 20:52

Well jeolla, the rules don't allow it. Of course, anyone who feels strongly enough can put forward a rule change and if the owners want it they will vote for it. That's democracy at work.
Val

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 22 Mar 2009, 00:05

Amen, Val.

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Post by JThompson » 22 Mar 2009, 02:39

I am looking to get rid of all the quotes, etc.

Lester, I need a simple answer to a simple question.

Is it your opinion that these rules only apply while a boat is racing, ie from their prep gun until they finish?

Regards,
Jim

PS. No offence to anyone else, but I would prefer if only Lester answered my question that I have addressed to him.
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Post by Lester » 22 Mar 2009, 10:44

.
Hi Jim

Its not my opinion. Its what the Class Rules say (sorry about the quotes, unavoidable):
IOM Class Rules wrote:PART II – REQUIREMENTS AND LIMITATIONS
The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing.
RRS definitions wrote:Racing
A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line
(BTW, the RSD discussion paper on its future is downloadable from the IOMICA Web site.)
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 22 Mar 2009, 15:52

To be serious here for a moment, Lester's answer to Jim's question is a very good illustration of the different ways people read and understand rules and regulations.

Note that when asked for an opinion, Lester instead posts two quotes. The conclusion one is supposed to draw from the quotes is that there is a single literal truth to the words as written standing alone without any reference to context.

Unfortunately, this approach to ascertaining the meaning of rules and laws is very limited and very much out of favor today.

The approach usually taken is to look at the body of rules and regulations as a whole and then to read provisions in context. Unfortunately, no one is perfect and particularly when people try to write rules over time inevitably something slips through the cracks or contradictions develop. Sometimes the wrong word is used, necessary limiting language is not included or the new provision is not 100% square with other older, laws and regulations.

How are these contradictions resolved? Again, by an analysis of context and history and common sense understanding. Literal readings that render provisions moot or nonsense are usually rejected for those that attempt to effectuate the intent of the rules and their drafters.

I certainly believe in this later approach.

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Post by Bruce Andersen » 22 Mar 2009, 17:40

Would an interested and merciful NCA please put a stop to this endless argument and propose something along the lines of:

"In the venue of radio controlled sailing, a boat is considered to be racing from her preparatory signal of the first head of a regatta to the time she crosses the finish line in her last heat of the regatta"

This would prevent the shifting or changing of weight during an event, but allow the owner to change things between regattas. I believe this is what everybody wants, but are hung up on the semantics. Sort of typical IOM pedantic argument that makes everybody crazy.

Actually, something along these lines is probably important enough to be included in our ISAF appendix.

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Post by Lester » 22 Mar 2009, 18:39

For Roy: You might be interested in my Web page dealing with these issues, written a few years ago:

http://www.onemetre.net/OtherTopics/Philos/Intphil.htm

Ordinarily, a rule is read and understood as it is written. Ordinarily, a rule is given its normal meaning. It is only under unusual circumstances that the meaning of a rule is ambiguous, difficult to establish, problematic, or contested between some interested parties. My position on this rule is that it is not in any way ambiguous or unclear. The crew and the boat shall comply with the rules in Part II when racing. A boat may change the size and position of her batteries when not racing.



For Bruce: Your intention is laudable, I'm quite certain we are agreed that the size and position of batteries should not be changed during an event, and that a rule change is needed for this.

But I think you need to give more thought to the consequences of defining racing as everything that happens between the first heat of an event and its last heat. For example, in the racing rules of sailing we read that certain right-of-way rules only apply to boats that are racing; that outside help is not permitted for boats that are racing; that competitors shall remain in the control area while racing; and so on.

What is wrong with the earlier suggestion (apart from the fact that I made it):

C.5.3 REMOTE CONTROL EQUIPMENT LIMITATIONS
USE
(d) During an event remote control and related equipment:
(1) shall be refitted in the same position if temporarily removed and/or,
(2) if replaced shall be replaced by equipment of similar weight.

This would go along with another suggestion for a rule change:

C.4.3 CORRECTOR WEIGHT(S)
Corrector weight(s) to achieve compliance with C.4.2, if used, shall be fixed in/on the hull and not be altered or moved during an event.

Lastly, you say 'Actually, something along these lines is probably important enough to be included in our ISAF appendix'. Well, something along those lines used to be in Appendix E, and was then removed. The reason was because ISAF decreed such rules were for a class to decide, and that they should go into class rules. So that is why we now have these rules in the Class Rules, and not Appendix E. As someone recently commented, sort of old news eh? (smile)
Last edited by Lester on 22 Mar 2009, 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JThompson » 22 Mar 2009, 18:45

Lester,

Thank you for the reply.

In that context, how do you reconcile pre or mid event measurement? Any of the items to be measured in Part II need only be in compliance "while racing". By that logic the boat need not be in compliance at any other time. Taken to its illogical extension, as long as I get an initial measurement certificate the boat need never again be 4000g or 1M in length. Any attempt to check for a violation would not be valid because the boat would not be racing at the time of the check.

Is that really what we mean?

edit - Kind of a moot point. I think Lester's rule change suggestions would solve most of these problems...

Regards,
Jim
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Post by Lester » 22 Mar 2009, 19:08

Hi Jim

Sorry for the quoting, but it is the only way I know of being clear what we are talking about in this kind of forum.
JThompson wrote:Taken to its illogical extension, as long as I get an initial measurement certificate the boat need never again be 4000g or 1M in length
Well, just to clear this out the way before moving on, the certificate does not state that your boat is, and forever will be, compliant. It only says that it complies on a certain date with certain class rules. In any case the measurement on which the certificate is based does not check your boat is more than 1000 mm long or less than 4000 g displacement:
IOM Certificate wrote:This certificate indicates that the boat complied with Sections D, E, F, G and H of the class rules at the time of fundamental measurement. Compliance with Section C of the class rules and Appendix G of the RRS has not been checked.
But to business.
Any attempt to check for a violation would not be valid because the boat would not be racing at the time of the check. Is that really what we mean?
Sure, this is not what we might mean, and I never suggested that it was, that was someone else's suggestion. To take a different example -- in many countries it is illegal to drive while over the blood alcohol limit. How do we check whether someone has been driving illegally? Same problem. Same solution as well: we rely on personal integrity; we might check the driver before they step into the car; we might check the driver after they get out the car; we might have some random process of pulling cars over. These methods are neither 'invalid', 'nonsense', or involve any 'absurdity'.
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Post by Roy648 » 22 Mar 2009, 21:55

Lester,

Your proposal for the two rule changes to specify during an event is the obvious solution and would be supported by NZL.

I do not see any serious argument here that this is not the intention, the removal from Appendix E seems to be the problem in that the Class Rules were not changed to accomodate such removal. However, as the rules currently stand this is not the reality.

QUESTION:

Would it be permissible for an event to specify in the Sailing Instructions that during the event Class Rules C.4.3 and C.5.3 shall modified as you suggest?
Roy Granich

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Post by RoyL » 22 Mar 2009, 21:56

Gee, do I much prefer making jokes. Jim, I think you have just demonstrated an excellent example of the problem of reading rules or regulations literally without regard to context. Under the strict reading of the rules Lester is proposing, since the only time many of the rules are to be followed is when "racing" and no boat can be event measured while "racing" the rules effectively do not apply. This of course is an absurd result.

Similarly, Bruce's post points out the other problem of trying to "fix" concerns raised by those who interpret things literally and out of context. All too often by solving one problem you create another. By saying that you are "racing" throughout an event, a "literalist" would then say you would not be able to talk to any other person or ask for help in tuning or setting up a boat. And even if we further amend our rules to solve this problem, you can be certain that somewhere down the line some other problem will rear its head.

This is why rules, regulations and laws should never be read literally as if handed down from on high and carved into stone tablets. There is always ambiguity in anything we create and no set of rules or regulations can be written to eliminate the need to interpret things in a rational manner and in light of their context.

To view this discussion in the best light, look at it this way. Lester is an engineer and I am a lawyer/executive. Lester is striving for an exact, precise answer which is perhaps the proper course in engineering a product or device. In business and in the law, I know that things can never be made perfect, that we inevitably have to compromise and that things always need to be read in context and in light of their intent.

To sum it all up, I don't think we need rule changes to fix this "problem". I am not aware of anyone who has seriously tried to advance the position staked out by Lester here as governing their boats or their conduct during an event (I actually do worry that this discussion might cause some misguided person to try). Nevertheless if any NCA thinks this is an issue that needs to be addressed an AGM is coming and a proposal can be put forward.
Last edited by RoyL on 23 Mar 2009, 16:18, edited 2 times in total.

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