Battery Weight & Placement

Discuss the IOM class rules and interpretations

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Lester
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Post by Lester » 22 Mar 2009, 22:24

Roy648 wrote:Would it be permissible for an event to specify in the Sailing Instructions that during the event Class Rules C.4.3 and C.5.3 shall modified as you suggest?
Hi Roy

Changing class rules is subject to RRS 87:
RRS wrote:87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES
The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.
It would probably be even more important for the change to be specified in the Notice of Race as well, since it is based upon the NoR that owners will decide whether or not they wish to enter an event.

I would expect that Bruce as VC Events would be very comfortable arranging such written permission at International level. At National or club level, I expect the NZL IOM NCA would be competent to do so.
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 23 Mar 2009, 17:06

In thinking about this a little more over the weekend, I found the perfect example to demonstrate the absurdity of the literalist position put forth by Lester.

Take this simple phrase "Thou shall not kill." The language is clear, simple, straightforward and absolute.

But, it's now World War II and you are in occupied France and the German army is approaching. Is it ok to fire on them? Or you are in a Spitfire over England at the same time and you have a German pilot in your "kill zone". Is it ok to pull the trigger? Or this simple question--a man breaks into you house; he holds a gun; he says he is going to first shoot your wife and child then you. Is it permissible to grab the gun under you pillow and shoot the intruder?

Virtually everyone would say that "killing" under any of the above circumstances would be appropriate and morally justified. Literal Lester, however, would simply quote the language of the commandment and say it is not a matter of his opinion, it is what the rule says and the rule says no killing period.

To give our literal friend a little credit however he would probably go on to say that of course it is justified to kill when your life is threatened or to protect your family or you country. The problem, he would posit, is that this is not what the rule says and accordingly, he would propose a modification.

Anyone agree? Think the ten commandments need to be modified? Do we need to urgently amend the commandment to say "Thou shall not kill except under the following circumstances.....?"

As I've said repeatedly here, look at anything long and hard enough and you can make it murky. Yes, we could spend the next ten years reviewing the IOM Class Rules for every flaw and contradiction and propose hundreds of new changes to clarify ambiguity and resolve contradictions. I however believe there is a lot better way to spend our time starting with sailing and racing IOMs. Let's fix problems that need fixing, not spend our time ferreting out issues and creating problems and then endlessly debating their unneeded solution.

Roy648
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Post by Roy648 » 23 Mar 2009, 22:13

I am afraid Roy that the last post has gone somewhat off point.

If I were to expand on your justifications I might well say Might is Right and that killing for possible deprevation of oil was justified.

The situation is clear, we have rules that are wide open to individual interpretation, something we all know your profession thrives on.

Lester has proposed a relatively simple solution which I believe brings things into line with what would appear to be the majority of thinking.

Whilst your profession is concerned about context and order my is concerned in delivering lives in the same state as when we became responsible for them.

90% of complex problems have a simple answer.
90% of answers are wrong

Cheers
Roy Granich

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 24 Mar 2009, 01:02

Other Roy (love the name btw)--Sorry if you think I missed the mark on my last post. Certainly this has strayed from the original topic on batteries.

What can I say, I generally don't like re-writing rules when they have been working fine for a number of years.

I also don't think a single person active in the class has ever tried to make the arguments advanced by Lester. They result in effectively making the rules meaningless and everyone knows that this is not their intent.

I am also concerned that as we approach an AGM, the same posters come out to "play" and try to raise these types of issues. Remember last year's "two receiver" controversy? No one wanted them banned, everyone knew that the extra boxes couldn't function as receivers, but the loud voices of some posters here made it into a major issue requiring a class vote.

I also worry that constantly rewriting the rules will inevitably lead to more problems.

I don't know, maybe I'm looking too hard at this myself. Certainly I try not to be like my "friend" Mr. Gilbert and am more than willing to admit that sometimes I take things a little too seriously..

Anyway,having said all that, if NZL would like to propose the "fixes" put forth by Lester Gilbert, even though I don't think they are necessary, I am the last person to stand in the way.

Best, Roy

Antonio Espada
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Post by Antonio Espada » 24 Mar 2009, 04:48

Quote:
"This is why rules, regulations and laws should never be read literally as if handed down from on high and carved into stone tablets. There is always ambiguity in anything we create and no set of rules or regulations can be written to eliminate the need to interpret things in a rational manner and in light of their context".

Roy Friend, you just charge the first principle that should be subject to any measurer according to ISAF. NEVER INTERPRET! !!
Now (known professions each) understand the problem: (I do not take sides with anyone ... Just note)
Lester wants to clarify, and you, Roy want to turn this into a Court of Guard.
You remain responsible IOMICA on the rules, I ask you in turn ask ISAF (ISAF= our supreme court), the latest edition of the Handbook for International Measurers ISAF (just came out published in February 2009), and -please- read the introduction and section on Interpretations Rules.
Democracy does not apply when a regulation applies a referee (not a law of justice). You imagine a referee Rugby democratic consultation highlighting a need?
The rules are not interpreted (as applicable only if there is doubt by a technical answer given by a technical committee and not by an indiscriminate assembly of people)
I speak from my measurer condition, and 1M sailor and not as an architect (my title).
Kind regards to all
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

wim bakker
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Post by wim bakker » 24 Mar 2009, 05:41

Roy L wrote
I however believe there is a lot better way to spend our time starting with sailing and racing IOMs. Let's fix problems that need fixing, not spend our time ferreting out issues and creating problems and then endlessly debating their unneeded solution.

Guess who started this thread?

Alfonso
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Post by Alfonso » 24 Mar 2009, 10:43

RoyL taking into account that you are a lawyer then you should remember one of the first lessons of Roman Law were it was explained that the rules shall be interpreted according with their literal meaning and, in case that the rule is not clear enough, you have to take into account the context, the precedents and the intention of the legislator.

Well in this case, and as far as you don’t explain us a different interpretation, it seems that in a literal interpretation of the rules I can move the corrector weights and batteries between heats.

One of these problems, the amendment to the rule C.4.3. Corrector weight(s), I think it has an easy and fast solution because this amendment http://www.radiosailing.org/pdf/220105% ... HANGES.pdf was already approved by ISAF RSD, so you only need to bring it to the WC, as it should have been done from the beginning, and we will vote.

The second one, the amendment to the rule C.5.3. Remote Control Equipment, it is going to take a longer time because the VCTechnical, following his own way to understand his position, is not going to propose any change, so the NCA will have to do it in the next AGM.

But the important thing here is that in the next WC in BAR all competitors will be able to move their corrector weights or batteries or replace them for a different one, not similar in weight, as far as they do so between heats and the boat complies with the rest of the rules. Am I right?[/code]

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 24 Mar 2009, 14:51

Wim: Guilty as charged. As VC Technical I was taken to task by some (including posters here) for not raising possible technical issues that might effect the class. So I posted a series of "issues" here to generate discussion. Next time I'll follow my own instincts and let sleeping dogs lie.

As to how to interpret rules and regulations let me try another simple example--around the United States there are red, eight sided highway signs that say "STOP". Following the theory that you give things their literal meaning does this require that a driver when confronted with this sign must "stop" forever? Remember the sign says nothing about "going" it just says "stop". Does anyone think the sign needs to be "amended" to read "STOP, WAIT FOR THIRTY SECONDS CHECK FOR TRAFFIC AND THEN GO AGAIN." Silly as this seems that is what you get when you read things literally. Everything must be read in context and in light of common sense.

And Antonio, yes at the next World Championship you can change corrector weights and batteries and have oversize sails and a lightweight boat, but only if Lester Gilbert is in charge. (lol) Otherwise, with or without a rule change common sense will apply.

Hiljoball
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Post by Hiljoball » 24 Mar 2009, 15:28

RoyL wrote: And Antonio, yes at the next World Championship you can change corrector weights and batteries and have oversize sails and a lightweight boat, but only if Lester Gilbert is in charge. (lol) Otherwise, with or without a rule change common sense will apply.
Roy, I find your attacking of another sailor distressing. If there were a way to report posts on this forum. I would report this for abusive behaviour.

It is fine to have a difference of opinion and to discuss the differences. It is not fine to attack someone whom, you believe holds a different view.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 24 Mar 2009, 17:32

John: I'm not sure what "attack" you are seeing, but to the extent I made one I apologize.

To clarify: first, hopefully, it was clear that I responded to Antonio with a bit of humor in the same spirit of his prior post. I always appreciate and welcome his opinions and I hope he knows that.

Second, as to my reference to Lester Gilbert, well there is a lot of history there, but again, I thought I was making a somewhat playful reference to the fact that it is Lester Gilbert who is arguing here that moving things around during an event is permissible. However, I freely admit that I expect Lester and I will never get along, we view the world in a very different way.

Third and finally, by my comments I wanted to make sure in a gentle way that no one should expect to be able to freely shift weights in their boats at the upcoming World Championships. No one really believes this is the nature and intent of our rules and it is my very informed understanding that the rules will be enforced as they are generally understood.

Other than the above I have no idea how I might have caused offense, but it once again proves that next time, I will not raise issues for the class but let them come from the membership. Lesson learned.

ole_peder
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Post by ole_peder » 24 Mar 2009, 17:39

As many times before great effort is put into discussing themes of no significance.

Bear in mind that the ground rule, if it isn't specificcally allowed it is prohibited.

Batteries, corrector weights or other "loose"equipment are not ment to be shifted around, and therefore you are not allowed to change ore move any of those during an event. If one have several batteries they must be of equal weight.

In my opinion shifting weight or equipment around to suit varying conditions is not allowed, the rules doesent state that. Shifting weights around violates the most important rule, SPORTMANSHIP, which govern all sailing.

The basic idea behind our rules is to give our class a basis for fair racing, they are not ment to be used as basis for tweaking or interpreting to gain advancec over other boats by doing so.

Stop fooling around in the discussion forum, if you are not able to beat your fellow competitor, you probably need more time on the water to be better.

Have any of you seen Graham, Jeff, Brad, Craig or other top sailors spending very much time discussion these issues in here? If so they wouldn't be at the top ine every major race.
Ole Peder Bjørsom
Chairman NOR NCA

Antonio Espada
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Post by Antonio Espada » 24 Mar 2009, 23:26

Roy:
I'm not offended at all. I will not go to World Championships (short course democratically awarded to the rules being discussed ad nauseam).
I ask: Have you read what you said about the introduction of the ISAF International Handbook Measurers?
The same question regarding the interpretation of rules of class ... Have you read?
It is likely that when you do that, change some ideas about what is being discussed here.
This explains what I have to check (one measurer) to do ...
I insist that I speak as nothing but a simple measurer.
Greetings to all
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

Alfonso
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Post by Alfonso » 25 Mar 2009, 12:20

Ole said wrote:Shifting weights around violates the most important rule, SPORTMANSHIP, which govern all sailing.
Dear Ole, I feel sorry not to agree with you, if you sail in dinghies or in big boats you will know that the weight of the crew and the place where you put this weight is very important for the performance of your boat and you do not violate any rule if you change the position of this weight, as far as you comply with the class rule in which you are sailing and rules 42 and 43 RRS.

So here we are in the same situation, what I would like to know is whether the class rule allow the change of weights between heats or not. Apparently and according with Lester’s interpretation it is allowed to move weights and RoyL has a different opinion. Once we agree in what the class rules allow we will have to decide if we all agree with that situation or we have to change the rules.

In my opinion the class rules shall not allow the change of weights between heats, while other people disagree, for example Jeolla from Denmark, but one thing is what we would like and something different is what the class rules actually say.

The problem here is that Lester’s explanation is quite clear and straightforward while RoyL’s is very complicated and mixed with crazy example about killing people in the II WW or with the meaning of the sign “STOPâ€

Dick Carver
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Post by Dick Carver » 26 Mar 2009, 04:45

<< The rules only apply while racing.... Racing is what happens between the prep signal and clearing the finish line. 'The rules of Part II only apply while racing'. The whole of Part II. >>

<< So where necessary, those rules which apply during an event say so. The other rules therefore apply while racing... >>


uuhhh.... not quite.... again

There are plenty of class rules in Sec. C that make no sense if you take the view that Sec C rules only apply while a boat is in the water, racing.
Also, there are rules in Sec C that specifically refer to actions that can only be taken while a boat is ashore, not racing.
IE:
C.4.1 DEMENSIONS
While the boat is floating in fresh water.........
If I'm racing in salt water, this rule would be meaningless, or unenforceable. Obviously this rule is aimed at floating a boat in a tank at Event Measurement.

C.4.2 Weight
The weight of the boat in dry condition.......
Clearly this rule is in effect while the boat is ashore

C.4.4 WATER
Water shall not be used to trim the boat and it may be removed at any time.
Clearly, this rule is in effect...at any time.
(that would include between heats or races)

C.5.2 MAINTENANCE
Routine maintenance to the hull such as removing and adding fittings and
remote control equipment, replacing hull patches, painting, polishing,
smoothing etc., is permitted without re-measurement and re-certification
provided the compliance with D.2 is not affected.
Anybody doubt that this one is in effect between races ?

There are more, but I'll cut this short.
By my count, 11 of the 25 rules in Section C specifically refer to actions or measurements that can only be performed or taken while the boat is ashore. That's 44% !
Here are the rest. C.5.3(d), C.6.1, C.6.2, C.7.1, C.7.3(b), C.8.1, C.8.2

A full 44% of the rules governing Conditions For Racing refer to actions taken while not racing, by the RRS definition.
To say that Section C rules are only in effect between a boats prep signal and the point at which she finishes and clears the line is simply wrong.
Dick Carver

JThompson
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Post by JThompson » 26 Mar 2009, 08:40

Well noted and well said Dick. I eagerly await the impending rebuttal...

I would like to point out however, my on-board gerbils are more than capable of effecting necessary repairs while under way :D

But more importantly... If an IOM sails in salt water, is it still an IOM?? [/joke]

Jim
Jim Thompson
IOM - USA 370 - Ericca

Robert Grubisa
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Post by Robert Grubisa » 26 Mar 2009, 15:23

I kindly ask you to read carefully following document:
http://www.iomclass.org/tech/IOMICA_TSC ... nction.pdf

It is posted on official IOM ICA website under Technical and clearly define what have to be done if interpretation or class rule change is needed.

What is the purpose of more than hundred posts if at the end we don't have official interpretation or request of class rule change as defined in mentioned document??
Robert Grubisa

Antonio Espada
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Post by Antonio Espada » 26 Mar 2009, 17:59

Thanks Robert ... CLEAR AS THE LIGHT and Resolutive.
Just what is not a forum for opinion.
What we need is not opinions, but decisions on how to apply the rules.
Because apparently there are too many questions ...
Antonio Espada
SCIRA CHIEF MEASURER
ESP 03

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
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Post by Alfonso » 26 Mar 2009, 19:06

Robert,

Probably you are right, I know that document and the procedure for a technical interpretation is quite similar to the one that must be followed in case of an amendment to the rules. That is the reason why I have not asked for a technical interpretation, because the last amendment to the rules were voted the 30th of November and the 17th of March no document was sent to ISAF RSD for final approval. Also because I thought there were no doubt..

jeolla
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Post by jeolla » 26 Mar 2009, 19:35

[quote="Antonio Espada"]

"What we need is not opinions, but decisions on how to apply the rules."

Well, For my part I think this is a place for both discussion on development of the current rules - and a place for decisions...
I find the IOM rule complex very good. In our fleet most boats are local designs and of great diversity. And so far everyone has his day. Maybe
with the exception of one able sailor,Soren A, who would win sailing a wooden shoe...
So the development on this fine class should focus on trimming of matters of obvious technological relevance and obvious shortcomings in the present text.
But most important. Keep it simple with room for low cost experimentation. Balance would be free....
JEOLLA

valpro
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Post by valpro » 26 Mar 2009, 20:47

well I kept out of this discussion for a while to see what came up. Very interesting too. You have Roy L reading the rule as it stands, you have Lester, a British National Judge insisting that the rules only apply when the boat is racing and you have me coming to measure a boat with the rule book in my hand and saying that Velcro doesnt fix your correctors.

I took some time to think about the Velcro issue as it is my belief that if you can come to each boat with an open mind, then you are acting fairly with no preconceptions. I do use Velcro myself in my Marblehead. It holds the battery in place and also the receiver, the boat having no pot. I have come to the conclusion that the definition of 'fixed' in this case requires the correctors to be only removable with the use of tools - screwdriver, file, grinder, chisel or whatever and that while Velcro will attach something it is with the intent of it being readily and instantly removable. So if you are arguing that Velcro fits the bill, I disagree because you can take it out at any time without the use of any tools. How is anyone going to know where the correctors are at any time, in the boat or out? And while I well know that the majority of you are honest in keeping the correctors in the boat, I am equally sure that we have our share of idiots who think the risk of being caught is worth the gamble of removing the correctors all the time.
Lester's contention that it only matters when the boat is racing is a pure distraction because if you accept his logic, the boat will need to be checked before every race. We appear to want to trust people to be honest in keeping their boats in class and most people are reluctant to protest over such things anyway but lets just go with the rule as it stands and fix the wretched things in place. If you want to change the rule then put up a proposal. Otherwise just move on please.
Val

Marko Majic
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Post by Marko Majic » 26 Mar 2009, 21:12

Dick Carver wrote:A full 44% of the rules governing Conditions For Racing refer to actions taken while not racing, by the RRS definition.
To say that Section C rules are only in effect between a boats prep signal and the point at which she finishes and clears the line is simply wrong.
Dick - I think you confusing "when and how rules should be checked" and "when rules are in effect".

An example: It's between heats (or between races) and I decide to try going down to my #2 rig. I hastily undo my shrouds, my backstay, snap off my jib and pack my #1 suit away... As I'm fumbling to get my #2 out of the box, another competitor walks over and calmly protests me for violating C.4.2

Now there's no question that he is right - my boat at that moment weighs in good 250+ grams short of the prescribed 4,000g.

The question, however, is does rule C.4.2 apply when my boat is ashore and not racing?

Personally, I don't think it does. It is my responsibility to make sure that my boat complies with all of the rules of section C (and any of the other sections for that matter) while I'm racing her. When she's ashore, or packed in my car or in my garage - she doesn't need to be compliant (and most of the time she's not).

Certain restrictions that are extended for the duration of the event are so noted in the LIMITATIONS section - easily understood and accepted! E.g. you are to use the same fin and rudder for the duration of an event, you are to use same 3 rigs (one of each) for the duration of an event etc.

They are labeled "LIMITATIONS" because they don't necessarily define what is legal/required of the equipment but rather stipulate certain additional restrictions (i.e. another fin might be equally class legal and boat can be fully CR compliant with it but C.6.2 (LIMITATIONS) states that you shall use the one with which you started the event (unless damaged, broken...). Perfectly simple and easy to understand.

This whole battery issue is pretty simple (and really not worth the amount of effort and certainly not the amount of bile that has been expended on it). To make sure that everyone understands it the same way (just like everyone understands the rule about appendages the same way) - all we have to do is move C.5.3(d) from USE to LIMITATIONS and prefix it with "During an event".

Period. End of story...

But I guess it's more fun to piss on each other for days in plain view of the whole sailing world... :oops:

Marko
Marko Majic
CAN 16

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 26 Mar 2009, 21:17

Val: Thanks for bringing this discussion back to where it began. I also think that your view on velcro and corrector weights is a practical and logical answer to this question.

And thanks to everyone else for posting here. Yes, this discussion has wandered and twisted and turned. Clearly, there have been numerous interesting points raised by all. I really believe that the best thing about "open" discussions is that they really are free and open and everyone can be heard.

I will pass all of it on to the exec and see if we can find a way to respond to everyone's needs and concerns.

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 27 Mar 2009, 17:01

Marko,

Well done. And then tell that idiot who is protesting you to read RRS E4.5 and get the heck out of your way so you can finish your rig change and get sailing. That rule clearly says you can change any of the things we are talking about at anytime; before a heat, during a heat, after a heat, yesterday, tomorrow, next week, next year!!!

When you combine the rules it, to me, is quite clear.

The only thing that I haven't seen talked about is the precedence of rules but my take is that RRS is pretty high in the pecking order.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Mike Allen
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Post by Mike Allen » 28 Mar 2009, 00:18

Regarding corrector weights...

Some adjustment needs to be accommodated for boats to add or subtract weight as they are weighed in for an event.
Mike Allen
USA 437

valpro
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Post by valpro » 28 Mar 2009, 09:23

Surely your boat preparation for a major event would include check weighing the boat on accurate scales and adjusting it at that point. I know from experience the top sailors leave nothing to chance in preparing for an event and will turn up with the boat fully sorted and all the paperwork. Consequently they usually go through measurement without a hitch and without any hassle, saving all their energy for the sailing........ If I was investing the money required to go to a Worlds or Europeans then I would at least be sure of my boat's weight and that, among other things, the sails were measured and black bands in place. Oh, and that the correctors were fixed as well :wink:
Val

Lester
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Post by Lester » 18 May 2009, 18:54

valpro wrote:I have already said that I will post this info when I have it. The fact that I havent posted it yet tells you that I havent got it yet.
Hi Val

Do you have the info yet?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 18 May 2009, 19:34

This is really getting tiresome.

Give it up and go sailing! Please!!!

valpro
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Post by valpro » 18 May 2009, 20:24

I keep speaking to my contact when I can catch him between events but so far all he has done is laugh and say 'You cannot be serious'. Nevertheless I do keep trying
Val

Lester
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Post by Lester » 21 May 2009, 12:52

Hi Val

Just to check (since I do not really see why your IJ laughs), the question you are asking is, 'Do the current IOM rules permit a change of position and/or weight of a battery pack between heats, between races, or not at all during an event?

My recollection is that you thought the class rules do not permit such movement during an event, and you expected your IJ to agree with you.

Or have I got that all wrong?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

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