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Posted: 10 Mar 2009, 22:32
As to your velcro suggestion please explain how attachment with velcro is "fixed" or "permanent".
Dear Roy, I also use the Velcro solution to fix the corrector weights to my boat and I have no doubt that I comply with the rules.
According with the dictionary to fix means attach or position securely.
So, in my opinion, if you put a boat upside down or you shake it and nothing happens then it is clear that the boat complies with the rule.
On the other hand I donâ€™t know why you say that the corrector weights need to be fixed in a â€œpermanentâ€
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 00:48
Have to strongly disagree with your reading of the rules. The rules require the corrector weights to be "fixed in/on" the boat. Nothing I could find in the rules explicitly permit corrector weights to be moved between events. Where do you find this?
Best I can tell is you have "fixed" your corrector weights to a velcro strap not the boat. If I put a piece of duct tape over the corrector weights they also won't move, but I would strongly argue they are not "fixed in/on" the boat. As pointed out somewhere else, even Graham Bantock silicones his weights into the boat.
The intent of the rule is clear-- corrector weights should not be capable of being moved around the boat. Under your reading of the rules in order to verify if "velcroed" corrector weights were "fixed" in place, we would have to note the amount of weight and where it is positioned as part of measurement. (BTW, in order to perform this weight measurement, we would have to take the weight out of the boat, showing that it wasn't fixed) Otherwise, you would be free to add or reduce weight and change its placement and no one would be able to tell one way or another.
One final thought--the rule here is clear and obvious. Trying to twist the meaning to allow something different isn't the way to address the problem. Make a rule change proposal and let the class vote.
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 10:24
RoyL wrote:Nothing I could find in the rules explicitly permit corrector weights to be moved between events
You wouldn't find it, because the rules do not concern themselves with the boat outside of an event. The class rules state that measurements with which the boat must comply (weight, draft, etc) only apply at an event or when the boat is ready for racing.
Re: Corrector weights
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 11:25
Alfonso wrote:According with the dictionary to fix means attach or position securely.
I will have to disagree with you here Alfonso. I spent a little time with the dictionary websites and found this...
fastened, attached, or placed so as to be firm and not readily movable; firmly implanted; stationary; rigid.
rendered stable or permanent, as color.
definitely and permanently placed
not fluctuating or varying; definite
securely placed or fastened : stationary
not subject to change or fluctuation
immobile , concentrated
Firmly in position; stationary.
Determined; established; set
Not subject to change or variation; constant
Those definitions are from 3 dictionary websites on the internet. Read every one of those definitions and explain how Velcro renders corrector weights "permanent", "rigid", "stationary", or "immobile".
Corrector Weights are to be GLUED in place!!
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 12:23
Yes Lester, the Class Rules do indeed say that but I disgree with your statement that only when racing must the boat be in compliance. That would mean that the certificate, as a guarantee that the boat was 'legal' would be worthless 99% of the time. How about when the boat was sold? What guarantee is there for the purchaser that the boat is compliant and surely this would mean checking every boat before every race? If you want to reduce or increase your correctors, then you need, ideally, to involve a measurer anyway to give the whole process some credibility. The problem here as I see it is that this business with the correctors arises out of a misunderstanding of the rules, a disregard of the rules or a lack of checking what the rules say for yourself. The rule is quite clear and always has been but if the class at large is not happy and want to continue to carry this practice on, then first we need to have input from the owners and then, if the need for a rule change is justified, need to consider how best to do it. But that is for the future and at present the correctors have to be fixed.
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 12:48
I bought a good Widget in last WC in Marseille, that I scrupulously maintain in the condition I got her, and I took part to last EC with her.
It was my first participation to such a big event, and I intend to take part to next WC in Barbados with that boat in the same maintained condition as far as possible.
But she has corrector weights fixed to the hull by the mean
of velcro... from the origin
In my opinion, that subject has been too much debated. I consider that :
1- till now no measurer had any problem with it.
2- Velcro is simply a mean
to fix these corrector weights.
3- changing the mean of fixation would lead me to hard & approximative work, because the place is very difficult of reach.
4- last but not least, I have experienced that the weight of a boat may vary geographically on earth. Or/and the weighter of the Measurer may be slightly differentfrom one to another. So Velcro mean of fixation is good way to adjust quickly the weight of a boat at an event in case of any problem.
Achille FRA 16
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 13:29
valpro wrote:That would mean that the certificate, as a guarantee that the boat was 'legal'
The certificate is not any such guarantee. It is only a statement that, at the time and date of measurement, the boat was in compliance with the rules applicable.
As a measurer, you know that the hull measurement form says,
IOM boat measurement form wrote:The boat shall comply with all the class rules in Sections D, E, F, G and H
... and you know that the measurement form does not require the measurer to measure anything relating to Section C.
The rule is quite clear and always has been
I agree. It is quite clear that the boat only needs to comply with Section C at an event, and not otherwise.
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 19:00
I like your explanation. I think it is clearer than Roy's. But that doesn't mean that I agree with you
I got the definition from the Oxford English Dictionary. I think you can consult it in the web. If the rules were written in Spanish I would know which is the right dictionary to look at
, but in this case I have to admit that probably my opinion is not very worthy.
Is there any "official" English Dictionary? Because as I already explained the velcro solution comply with the meaning "securely placed or fastened" that is in your list.
Probably it does not comply with another meaning of your list "definitely and permanently placed", but as I also said this meaning should not be the right one in this case because the rules allow to move the weights between events.
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 20:38
Alfonso: As I asked earlier where in the rules is it stated that it is "allow(ed) to move the weights between events"? I can't find any language to this effect anywhere.
Also, please understand where I am coming from. I believe that the IOM Class has to evolve over time and that the rules are always subject to change and update.
However, I also strongly believe that the way you change the rules is to have an NCA make a proposal to the Class and let everyone vote. In the case of corrector weights, the meaning of the word "fixed" (even under your definition) can not reasonably include a velcro strap that allow weights to be easily and freely removed.
So again, rather then try to twist the rules, if you want to allow corrector weights to be held in place with a velcro strap, make a motion to change the rules.
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 22:47
Lester, I have never agreed with the practice of fundamental measurement on its present basis. If the owner takes the responsibility for the compliance of the boat to all the rules, it is my opinion that the measurer is the person who should be looking at all these points as part of the fundamental measurement for the owner.
As to the certificate being a guarantee, of course it is, since under English Law, the goods sold must be what they say thay are and without a VALID certificate the boat cannot reasonably be sold as an 'IOM', only as an 'IOM Type Boat'. The owner then starts off with a piece of paper that says that what he bought is what it purports to be. Like the MOT on your car, it is a snapshot in time that on the day of measurement, the boat complied. You cant have it both ways, either the boat is kept in compliance with the rules and the certificate details or it needs to be checked each time it goes to the starting line. I can't see that being either popular or practical.
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 22:50
Roy I did not answer your question because I saw Lester's explanation and I thought it was clear enough.
Then if you agree with us that I can move the corrector weights between events you also have to agree with me that the way that owners fix them in/on the hull does not need to be very â€œstrongâ€
Posted: 11 Mar 2009, 23:52
Please read Val's explanation about boats between races. Lester's belief that when not racing the rules allow you to change anything you want on your boat is clearly not something that is written in any rule book that I know of. In fact, to be very technical, if you change anything between events on an IOM it could be argued under our rules that you need to have the boat re-measured.
Finally, I have to say that in consulting with various builders, designers, owners and other members of the Exec to get a sense where the class is on this issue, I have to tell you that virtually no one adopts the position that corrector weights can be removable. A velcro strap is not "fixed" in just about everyone's mind I think except for people who are using a velcro strap to fix their weights (lol). Most adopt the Graham Bantock method and use silicone to hold weights in place.
No one has asked for an interpretation of this issue, but ....
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 00:08
Roy I have to tell that many boats in Europe use Velcro to fix their corrector weights.
As a boat gets older it gets heavier and you need to remove some weight to get to the 4kg and still be competitive, velcro is great for this.
If it is glued with so much epoxy that you seem to use, it's virtually impossible without damaging the boat.
So please continue with epoxy, and I will continue with Velcro as long as measurers stay clever around here.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 01:58
Several items have appeared in this thread.
1. How should corrector weights be attached to the hull.
2. Can corrector weights be moved or altered to alter the trim of the hull
3. can corrector weights be moved between heats (when is a boat racing?)
My view is that corrector weights must be mechanically attached to the hull and may not be moved or changed. If they are moved or changed, then the only way to confirm that the boat complies with the class rules, (the 60mm draft and min/max keel depth) is to be remeasured.
The class rules use the term 'fixed'. The ERS uses the term 'attached'.
To me, ' fixed' or 'Attached' means mechanically attached, but it does not mean 'permanently'. So velcro would be legal.
Also note the IOM Boat Measurement form section Hull. D.1.4 says that corrector weights are excluded from displaying the registration number. To me, that suggests an acknowledgement that the weights may not be trusted to be permanent.
Just to confuse things further, there is no requirement on the measurement form that the measurer confirms that the boat is 1M in length, that the hull does not exceed 60mm depth, that the keel does not exceed the min/max depth, or that the hull and keel meet weight limits. These are implicitly declared by the owner when he/she signs the measurement form and further, agrees to ensure that the boat meets these requirements.
ERS D.1.1 defines corrector weights as part of the hull.
The ERS recognizes the terms Ballast, moveable ballast and corrector weights as different items. The rules vary for each. The use of terms for balast and moveable balast prevents corrector weights being used as balast or moveable ballast.
RRS R51 prevents even ballast from being moved to affect trim.
In the RRS definitions "Racing"
A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and
clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee
signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.
The RRS uses the term Race. RC racing required the concept of heats to accommodate larger fleets; so the term 'heat' was introduced in Appendix E1 to redefine the term Race. So the terms race, heat and event as nouns should not be confused with the term 'racing'. A boat is only 'racing' when it meets the definition of 'racing'. The boat is not 'racing' in the period between heats or races (if the boat is promoted to the next heat or demoted to the next race) as that does not fit the definition of 'racing'.
Here are some rules extracts that cover the items in discussion.
A.2.2 Compliance with a Certificate
The boat shall comply with its certificate.
See also RRS rule 78 Compliance with Class Rules; Certificates.
B.10.1 Corrector weights shall be securely fixed.
See also RRS rule 51 Movable Ballast.
C.6.3 Boat Control Definitions
Weight installed to influence the stability, flotation or total weight of the
(iii) MOVEABLE BALLAST
Internal ballast or external ballast that may be moved.
(iv) VARIABLE BALLAST
Water ballast the amount of which may be varied.
(v) CORRECTOR WEIGHT
Weight installed in accordance with the class rules to correct
deficiency in weight and/or its distribution.
The shell including any transom, the deck including any superstructure, the
internal structure including any cockpit, the fittings associated with these parts
and any corrector weights.
51 MOVABLE BALLAST
All movable ballast, including sails that are not set, shall be properly stowed. Water, dead weight or ballast shall not be moved for the
purpose of changing trim or stability. Floorboards, bulkheads, doors,
stairs and water tanks shall be left in place and all cabin fixtures kept on board. However, bilge water may be bailed out.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 02:35
Most everyone must have heard the story (or in most cases, lived it) where a youngster wants to do something that their parents don't want them to do because "everyone else is doing it". The answer I got was something on the order of "if everyone else was running off the edge of a cliff would you want to do that?".
I like to drive nice cars quickly and that is usually against some regulation. Turns out a lot of us like to do that but it is still against the "rule".
Just because a number (I wonder what that number might actually be out of all the IOMs in the world?) are using velcro does not somehow make it all legal.
Nobody said you had to epoxy them in. Any adhesive will do but during an event it should be quite difficult to move them.
Between events? I would say you can do anything you want that is not connected to the initial measurement of the boat. How it floats, how deep it floats, the location of components are not really on the measurement form for most of these things. So having to remeasure between events for things that aren't checked in the first place seems to be an exercise that won't help.
The things covered by initial measurement have to stay as they were presented but changing a radio style, using a different style of battery, etc. are things that should surface at event measurement and be handled within that context.
Just my opinion.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 04:21
Let me try this from another angle--how can something be "fixed" in place if it can be simply and easily removed? Anything held down by velcro is only "fixed" for as long as the owner wants it to be. Under this theory, anything could be claimed to be "fixed" until it is removed. Does anyone really think that the term "fixed" can include things that are by design simply and easily removable?
If people want to use velcro to hold their corrector weights, then please propose how measurers should deal with this situation? How do we tell if the weights have been moved? How do we know if the amount of the weights haven't been changed? What stops someone from simply pulling away the velcro strap and pocketing the corrector weights and then returning them for the last race of an event?
To me, the IOM Class Rules are pretty straightforward--they require corrector weights to be fixed and not removable because it is the best and simplest way to verify a boat is in compliance with the rules.
Finally, as others have said, there are alternatives to epoxy to fix weights. Most people I know use silicone. Weight is fixed permanently, can't be easily removed, but doesn't distort the hull and can be cut away if necessary.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 10:07
(now is my time to make questions
To start from the beginning, do you agree that any owner can move the corrector weights between events?
In case you answer NO I would like to know why.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 15:47
I believe that under our class rules if you move corrector weights between events that technically requires that the boat be re-measured. The reason:
The rules require the corrector weights be "fixed" in place. You then have your boat measured and receive a certificate. If you later remove your corrector weights, put them in another place, increase or decrease the amount of weight, the boat you had measured has been changed and requires you to have a new fundamental measurement.
Even if you put the weights back in what you think is the same place and in the same amount, there is no way that a measurer can verify this change since there is no record of where and how much corrector weight you had in the boat at initial measurement. This is particularly true if the weights are not "fixed" in place but are on a removable, velcro strap.
Of course if your corrector weights are truly fixed in place this is not a problem because it is difficult (but not impossible, see the notes about how Graham Bantock attached his corrector weights with silicone) to remove them but it is unlikely you will regularly do so. The time to remove the corrector weights in these circumstance is when you have made some major changes to the boat and it is going to be remeasured anyway.
So to answer your question, yes I believe you can remove corrector weights between events, but if you do so it requires a re-measurement
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 16:39
What the changes are that require a re-measurement is a whole other discussion. In the purest sense, the hull of the boat does not even need to be finished to get through measurement. Again, to the letter of the form itself, the boat is not really "measured" more like it is observed. There is no place on the form to note weight, draught, actual length or any of the things that you would think should be there to certify that it is truly an IOM. All those things are the result of event measurement.
So corrector weight location, radio equipment location and their relative weights are really only checked on a per-event basis so I would say that what you do with them on a week to week basis is quite free.
But when they are presented for event measurement they better comply with the rules and fixed is fixed.
If I was an event measurer I could likely solve this problem quite quickly. I would simply inform all the Velcro'd boats that I would be needing a clear look at their corrector weight location following every heat they compete in to assure that they are still in the correct location. My guess is that you will get tired of breaking your waterproof seal at the end of every one of your heats, particularly on wet days.
Glue the damn things in for the event and get over it.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 16:52
Roy, now I am even more concerned than before.
Are you sure that if we move the corrector weights we have to re measure the boat?
I was going to answer you but I have seen that John Ball has answered you in another post.
Roy I remind you again that you are the VCTechnical, so take care when you make that kind of statement.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 17:31
Alfonso following your point I am also concerned. You are NCA rep for Spain and you are taking some pretty radical views on how the rules should be read and interpreted.
As I told John Ball, please read the hull measurement form where it clearly states to measurers that a boat must be in compliance with all aspects of the IOM Class Rules from Part D to H not just the check box items.
Are you saying that in your NCA the practice when initially measuring a boat is to not check keel/bulb weight? Overall Hull Weight? Depth?
Finally, Alfonso please know that I have only the best interests of the class in mind and do not have any personal interest in this issue (as I get a sense you do). Please--ask around, talk to various designers and builders and the leading sailors in the class, see how many follow your practice and agree with your position. I am more than willing to listen with an open mind.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 18:15
Roy, the length, draught and weight of the boat is in section C
Of course, at the time of fundamental measurement we do not use the tank or the scale. Do you do that in USA?
I do not need to talk with the leading sailors, because as Barry has said in this post "if everyone else was running off the edge of a cliff would you want to do that?". But now that you talk about leading sailors. Did you read Achille post? Because there are some other top sailors apart from Graham.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 18:36
Now I may be sticking my neck out and as a club measurer and builder maybe I should know better, but.
Can anyone show me on the boat measurement form where a measurer is required to weigh a boat. All I can see is that an owner is required to maintain the boat in class including being up to weight. Also I can not see any fundemental measurements required to be taken by a measurer that are likely to be affected by moving the corrector weights.
I would therefore expect that so long as the owner maintains the boat in class and keeps the ballast in a fixed position during an event that this would be fine. In fact even if the corrector weights needed to be removed during an event say to affect a repair to the hull, so long as it was replaced and fixed as close as could reasonably be expected to the original position the boat has been maintained 'in class'.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 19:31
Many years ago, I was a measurer at a big boat championship.
At the prizegiving dinner, I was awarded the Wooden Spoon Award for stirring things up.
Maybe the IOM Class could make a similar trophy available.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 19:45
Wot just the one spoon?
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 22:29
Barry you sure have got this right. When you open a door, its amazing what comes through. I always thought it was well understood that "fixed" could not have the same meaning as "removable". The sole purpose, nature and reason for velcro is that it is a product that is removeable, not a fixed fastener like glue. I also thought that at the time of initial measurement everyone weighed and measured their boat.
Thanks to Alfonzo for brining this issue to the fore. We have already notified the measurers for the upcoming world championship to check if corrector weights are "fixed" in place. Unless something different emerges, expect that velcro attachment of corrector weights will not be deemed to be "fixed".
As to whether or not the rules require a measurer to weigh a boat, I go back to the hull form that requires a measurer to not sign if he/she believes the boat is not in compliance with the class rules. Maybe this isn't the best way to have written our rules or forms. But it seems clear to me that the only way to know whether to sign a measurement form for a hull is to weigh and measure that hull.
In the US, your boat is weighed and measured before the measurer signs the form. If this is not the practice in other places, it would be great to know. (BTW, maybe this is why so many boats failed event measurement at the recent WC.) Perhaps its time to re-write the rules. To me, fundamental measurement without weighing the keel, hull, boat etc. and checking depth and floatation is kind of worthless.
Posted: 12 Mar 2009, 23:15
RoyL wrote:We have already notified the measurers for the upcoming world championship to check if corrector weights are "fixed" in place. Unless something different emerges, expect that velcro attachment of corrector weights will not be deemed to be "fixed"
With what authority are you able to say that measurers at a World Championship shall interpret the Class Rules in the way you do?
Posted: 13 Mar 2009, 00:33
I am pretty much on board with you as far as wondering how you can certify an IOM without know how it floats, how long it is and whether it is the correct weight while doing all of that.
I am also of the mind that the currently defined process does not require that to happen.
While it may be a common practice in some areas to float and weigh a boat at initial measurement, I think you will find areas of the US where that doesn't happen. I know that one of my former boats, and a number of others on the same day, achieved certification without a ruler touching the hull and without any water, or scales, present.
It would seem that there is some room to make that change but I have to say that the current combination of forms and CR says that a quite unfinished boat could pass the measurement test well ahead of being able to sail.
Posted: 13 Mar 2009, 01:24
Lester: I forgot that you are the sole and final source of how the IOM Class Rules must be interpreted (lol).
Posted: 13 Mar 2009, 09:23
A few posts ago you complained about the amount of heat and wanted to bring some light.
It seems to me you are now injecting heat into this debate.
I note you have provided no rational answer to my question. So your defence is a personal attack. A pity.