Sail Markings Question?

Discuss the IOM class rules and interpretations

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IanHB
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Sail Markings Question?

Post by IanHB » 13 Feb 2005, 23:56

:shock: I recently purchased a second hand rig from a friend to use on my new V5. He had marked the sails with his boat registration number using a marker pen. Rather than risk ruining the sail by attacking it with thinners I deceided to spray paint over his numbers and then to apply my numbers in a different place. My question is, ARE THESE SAILS NOW ILLEGAL?
I have attached a link to a photograph to ask for opinions.


http://nz.msnusers.com/SharedPicturesIa ... v5iom.msnw
DO IT NOW BEFORE IT`S TOO LATE!

Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 15 Feb 2005, 02:38

That was the first thing I said to myself when you posted the pics recently (hmm, those are some mighty large draft stripes....)
Simply put, yes, they would be illegal, and I would not expect them to pass through measurement.
Acetone or MEK works very well for removing numbers, so long as you stay off the seams. I also heard denatured alcohol works too, but I've not tried it
Steve Landeau
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Ray Flanigan
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Sail (IL)Legality

Post by Ray Flanigan » 16 Feb 2005, 13:38

:)
Like the cool custom job on your sails.
I do not see that they would be illegal, having read and reread the rules I cannot see anywhere that it states SAILS may not be multicoloured.
I normally sail with a sail that is slightly customised (with my personal logo, not advertising) and a brightly colored deck. The reason being is that I suffer from a form of astigmatism and by using the aforementioned methods I am better able to identify my boat, and not inadvertently end up sailing some one elses boat.
But as to legality go thru the IOM rules as well, I cannot see that it contravenes any rules.
Not advertising black are we?

Ray
:?

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 16 Feb 2005, 18:00

Generally advertising isn't a problem on our sails or boats - they are Category C as far as IOM Class Rules and ISAF are concerned and although your MNA may have some rules about it, the restrictions are minimum. But your blackouts aren't advertising are they.

That said, I don't think your 'blackouts' are legal simply because they are exactly the same as sail draft stripes which as you are no doubt are aware, have a maximum width rule of 30mm (IOM class rules G3.3 and 4.3)

Ray said:
I cannot see anywhere that it states SAILS may not be multicoloured.


The rules in this part act in completely the opposite way to your thinking...

It is vital to remember the rules in Parts II and III of the IOM Class Rules are 'closed' in that if it's not specifically permitted it is prohibited. I can not see anywhere in the rules which permits this type of marking and this is the fundamental difference and a common problem when people read the rules. The idea of 'if its not mentioned it's not allowed' is quite diffent to the more common, 'if it's not prohibited then it is allowed'. If it doesn't specifically say you can have huge great blackout stripes, then you can't have them.
And the sails are not 'multi coloured', they are white with large blackout stripes painted on which is completely different.
The paint could be said to add local reinforcement and aid the sail in maintaining it's shape, although it may well be the opposite and it is a hinderance to sail setting. But that's not the important point here.

So, my completely unofficial opinion is that they are illegal.

As has been said, it's not so difficult to remove marker pen numbers, I use alcohol and it doesn't seem to affect the mylar type cloth at all, although with spi-cloth type jibs (Blackmagick type) it leaves a rather ugly smudge. I would love to here from someone about how to remove numbers drawn on with a marker pen from spi-cloth type jibs! And come to think of it, the whole question of number changing on sails is a bit of a mess, no? I regularly buy new sails and sell on the 'old' ones. I would love to be able to sell them after removing completely my personal sail number.

Hope this helps to clear up the doubts especially about the common misunderstanding of the application of the rules.

Happy sailing.....
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Nigel28
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Post by Nigel28 » 16 Feb 2005, 18:05

Ray
You need to bear in mind that the rules governing sails are in part II and therefore are closed class rules. In other words anything not specifically permitted is illegal. The only refference to markings (other than class insignia and identification) is the max 3 sail shape indicator stripes which are latter given a max 30mm width and there is also an allowance for a sailmakers emblem.
These are the only permitted markings and therefore any other markings would be illegal :roll:
Nigel Ashman
CAN 328

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Post by Chairman » 16 Feb 2005, 18:46

In addition to the Class Rules, you also need to check the ERS (Equipment Rules of Sailing), because there can be a definition in the ERS that makes a difference as to whether something is legal or not. An, erm, interesting example is the ERS definition of "seam" -- two overlapping panels. No problem there, you might think. But the Class Rules require that panels be joined by *seams*. Oh. If for some reason you wanted to butt-join your two panels, and you then "reinforced" the butt-join with a strip of material, why, you have three panels not two, and you have two seams not one... Don't e-mail me, I know it sounds crazy, but there you go!

But something that Ray said caught my attention (smile). Very infrequently, I've seen a "multi-coloured" sail, made up of panels of different colours or different finishes. For example, you can buy mylar film in frosted or matt or clear, or spinnaker cloth in green or red or blue... and it can be tempting to have a sail panel of each kind. But somewhere in the class rules it says "The body of the sail shall consist of the same ply throughout", and this is usually interpreted to mean that, literally, the ply needs to come from the "same" bolt of cloth or the same "larger sheet". So no mixing frosted with matt, or red with blue with white, even though the material is in all other respects "the same".
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Ray Flanigan
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Post by Ray Flanigan » 16 Feb 2005, 19:14

OK, I now understand what is going on in the rules.
(Difficult to put without sounding a total idiot) is it then possible to have your 1m sails in a different color apart from white?
:? The only way to learn is by asking questions. (My excuse for being a bit stupid) :oops:

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Post by Chairman » 16 Feb 2005, 20:36

Ray Flanigan wrote:Is it then possible to have your 1m sails in a different color apart from white?
Hi Ray

Sure, the panels just need to be all the "same". But, you might run into problems with the visibility of your sail number. If a measurer is in doubt, they would put your sails side by side with a "regular" rig, and then walk backwards until one or other sail number became unreadable. It had better be the other rig... (smile)
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ralph kelley
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Post by ralph kelley » 17 Feb 2005, 13:10

In an earlier post, I underatand Lester indicated that it was common to consider the word "ply" to mean from the same lot/bolt/roll of material.

My dictionary calls the term "ply" to mean "a single thickness, fold or layer". And the ERS supports this with a similar "ply" defination with "a sheet of sail material".

Now it is generally understood that the single ply wording in the IOM Rules G.3.1(a)2 could be interpeted that the sail material for the entire sail will be of the same roll or bolt of the raw material but the actual defination of the term ply does not require any specific commonalty between the panels. Nevertheless, it is generally understood that the panels will be made of the same material.

Nowhere is there anything that addresses any specific finish commonality in the panels, although an argument might be made for common film thickness and in terms of a fabric sailcloth, the a common "finishing" of the sailcloth in the panels.

Regardless of the uncertainty of the IOM rule wording, I think that all sail panels are actually made of the same material, but in terms of mylar material, the finish (frosted or clear) might be different on otherwise similar material.

I hope I will never hear anrgument that for frosted mylar, the frosted surface must be on the same side of the finished sail.

I suggest that worrying about the mylar sail panels being frosted or clear, and like "interpetations" or "assumptions" is not in the overall class best interest.

Let's hope any future changes to our Rules put emphasis on performace aspects of our craft. As maybe the worst example, our Rules require some really dumb things like having 1mm tolerances on the shape of the IOM logo on the mainsail.

Ralph

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Post by Chairman » 17 Feb 2005, 14:50

ralph kelley wrote:I underatand Lester indicated that it was common to consider the word "ply" to mean from the same lot/bolt/roll of material
Hi Ralph

I think what I actually said was, "...it says 'The body of the sail shall consist of the same ply throughout', and this is usually interpreted to mean that, literally, the ply needs to come from the 'same' bolt of cloth or the same 'larger sheet'..."

I clearly overstated what might be meant by "the same", since I expect measurers would be perfectly happy knowing that the sail material was all "Mylar product code XYZ from Bainbridge" or whatever. The point I was trying to make was that "the same" means exactly that -- the same. So (in my unofficial opinion, naturally!) a sail which mixes a frosted mylar with a matt mylar with a clear mylar is not permitted under the class rules. I would expect a particular thickness and quality of frosted mylar would be product code XYZ-F, for example, matt mylar would be XYZ-M, and clear mylar would be XYZ-C. These are different materials.
I hope I will never hear anrgument that for frosted mylar, the frosted surface must be on the same side of the finished sail. I suggest that worrying about the mylar sail panels being frosted or clear, and like "interpetations" or "assumptions" is not in the overall class best interest.
I would want to be less prescriptive of what IOM owners might or might not wish to worry about, ask questions about, or discuss. For me, it is exactly in the best interests of the class that such questions are asked and discussed openly. There can be no suggestion of stupidity, invalidity, or impropriety in such discussion, and there can be no suggestion that asking such questions and having such discussion is not in the interests of the class.
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Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 17 Feb 2005, 16:41

Chairman wrote:
Ray Flanigan wrote:Is it then possible to have your 1m sails in a different color apart from white?
Hi Ray

Sure, the panels just need to be all the "same". But, you might run into problems with the visibility of your sail number. If a measurer is in doubt, they would put your sails side by side with a "regular" rig, and then walk backwards until one or other sail number became unreadable. It had better be the other rig... (smile)
I'm replying strictly by memory, as my rules folder is not here in front of me, but if I'm not mistaken , a class measurer is no longer required to check the sail numbers, only the class insignia. Checking the sail numbers is the responsibility of the owner and event measuring.
Steve Landeau
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Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 17 Feb 2005, 18:30

Checking the sail numbers is the responsibility of the owner and event measuring
Yes, your right, but there can't be many people who have illegal sails or numbers or boat when not competing and then make them legal only for events, no? As we have already said, they're not the easiest thing to change or move.
You are also right in putting responsibilty on the owner - the measurer is there to help the owner avoid problems with protests over an illegal boat - he's your friend and he /she's not there to catch you out. It is the owners responsibilty to keep his/her boat within the current rules at all times. If an owner has a doubt, the person who probably knows most about the rules in this respect is the measurer (as well as those more concientious and experienced sailors). Ask him/her! And if they don't know, at least they should have the means and information available to find out.

I don't think it's necessary to distinguish between fundamental measurement and event measurement since at all times your boat should comply with ALL the rules, whether specifically checked at fundamental or event measurement or not.

I understand that in some countries they insist on an 'event measurement' check at the same time as fundamental measurement and before issuing a certificate. Whilst this process is not 'legal' in that there is according to the rules and regulations absolutely no neccesity for sail numbers (for example, as you have correctly said) to be checked to get a certificate, and indeed the owner could quite rightly demand a certificate without this extra 'event' type check (which includes the tank for measuring draft etc), it has to be said that it will help the owner turn up to his first (and hopefully subsequent) event with more possibility of a 'legal' boat and more understading of what is required at events.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

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Post by Chairman » 17 Feb 2005, 19:22

Chairman wrote:If a measurer is in doubt...
Steve Landeau wrote:Checking the sail numbers is the responsibility of the owner and event measuring.
Hi Steve

Sure. If an event measurer is in doubt...
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IanHB
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Post by IanHB » 20 Feb 2005, 11:19

Generally advertising isn't a problem on our sails or boats - they are Category C as far as IOM Class Rules and ISAF are concerned and although your MNA may have some rules about it, the restrictions are minimum. But your blackouts aren't advertising are they.

Roy, are you saying that if I should turn my blackouts into advertisments on the sails then they would become legal or are they still a no no?
The question is asked with my tongue in my cheek but also as a discusion prompt.
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Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 21 Feb 2005, 22:42

if I should turn my blackouts into advertisments
mmm.....interesting, I really don't know of the top of my head.
I guess it's possible if they are adverts and don't interfere in any way with the recognition of the sail numbers etc - problem is that that is a bit subjective no? And what product or service are they advertising exactly?And I think it would be better to make them definitely not sail shape indicator stripes by not having them go from luff to leech. That alone may well make the difference to a finicky measurer.All unofficially of course.
But it is something to think about. It's a common problem that you have and it would be good to get our collective thinking caps on to come up with a vable solution.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

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