SHRS scoring system

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Zvonko
Posts: 21
Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 17:17
Location: Split

SHRS scoring system

Post by Zvonko » 05 Jun 2017, 09:12

Dear Friends

At World Championship in Pierrelatte, some of you had questions about SHRS scoring system while we were waiting for the protests, so my idea is to put all the answers and future questions here.

1. Do all competitors sails to the end of the championship?
Yes, at 50% - 60% of the championship you are fixed in the group depending on your overall standings.

2. Race tactics?
For overall victory, every heat has to be sailed to win. Every point counts and there is no reason to sail for 10th or 11th place in any heat, or to be satisfied with 5th in the “B” heat ( like me on race 23 B )

3. Overall scoring?
Smaller differences in total points make an event more interesting, for everyone. The principle is always - Sail to win each race.

4. Waiting for protest hearing?
There is no delay as each heat is a race for its own. Movement between heats only applies to next race and place over the finish line can be used, no waiting for results of the hearing.

5. Number of boats in a championship
For a championship with 80 entries, they can be divided into 5 heats of 16 boats or 4 heats of 20 boats = more racing or fewer racing days for competitors.
Championship can be with 100 entries 5 heats of 20 boats

6. Prizegiving
It is a suggestion to organisers that winner (or top 3) of any final group get a prize, reason more to keep on racing and having fun.

Attachment is SHRS rules.

Reards Zvonko Jelacic
Attachments
SHRS.pdf
(29.62 KiB) Downloaded 75 times

Hiljoball
Posts: 264
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 01:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Hiljoball » 05 Jun 2017, 19:04

Hi Zvonko,

I think there are some topics missing from the procedures described in the pdf.

How will points carry over from Part A to part B - it should be spelled out.
There are several options in use including
a) carry points over,
b) all start at zero,
c) start with points based on assigned place, eg first gets 1, second gets 2 etc for each fleet.
d) I have seen Part B of an event use double points.

How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event? The issue is that statistically, the 'data set' - (the quality of skippers in the heats) for Part A and Part B of the regatta are quite different.

For example for Redress, a skipper finishes around 4th or 5th place the heats of Part A. He makes it in to Gold Fleet for Part B. In the first race of part B (against the top skippers) he finishes 15th. In the next race he is disabled and requests redress. What redress to we assign? Avg points for the whole event would give him much better points that he would expect to finish in a heat in the Gold fleet.

A similar statistical question exists for discards - do we discard high points place from the Gold finish and keep his low points finishes from Part A of the event? Or do we keep the score from Part A and start over a new discard table for Part B?

I think the procedures need to spell out these decisions.

Regards

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8

RoyL
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Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 22:03

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by RoyL » 05 Jun 2017, 22:10

The proposed SHRS system for major races is great for those at the top of the ranking, less so for those below, and the further down you are the worse things become. Basically, you will lose the opportunity to sail against the best or move up in class half way through the event. It is hard to understand why anyone for example would want to stay the entire ten days or so of a major regatta only to at best be "Champion of E Fleet". If the goal is to have more races for elite sailors then hold qualifying races around the world; cut the number of participants down to one or two fleets; and hold a smaller event. If there is really a need to have more elite sailors race together at the end, maybe make the last half day of the event only for A fleet, but substituting SHRS for HMS to me is the wrong direction to move toward.

Zvonko
Posts: 21
Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 17:17
Location: Split

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Zvonko » 06 Jun 2017, 09:32

Hi John


1. How will points carry over from Part A to part B - it should be spelled out
In the file is written - RRS Appendix A Low Point Scoring system shall apply for all races (qualifying and finals)
You carry all the races in finals and you can discard what is best for you (A (gold) fleet will probably discard more from final, E probably more for qualifications, but on the event, on average you will have 13 qualifications and 13 final ( total 26 ) and only 4 discards, in the end, it is same for all in their final group.
If you have any other systems some of your races won't count and we want that every race count and you sail to win it.

2. How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event?
Think it is up ti Judges: some can give an average on the regatta, some for the day and some just a place assigned.

Personally, I would recommend average of qualification or finals depend on where redress is given

Regards Zvonko

Roy648
Posts: 41
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 06 Jun 2017, 09:57

Hi Roy
RoyL wrote:The proposed SHRS system for major races is great for those at the top of the ranking, less so for those below, and the further down you are the worse things become. Basically, you will lose the opportunity to sail against the best ........
Actually the exact opposite. Except for the grading race in the 2017 WC boats from the bottom 20 places on average sailed against a top 10 boat once every 10.2 races. Under SHRS each bottom 20 boat would sail against top 10 boats an average of 2 in every race.

Regards
Roy Granich

Roy648
Posts: 41
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 06 Jun 2017, 11:53

Roy648 wrote:Hi Roy
RoyL wrote:The proposed SHRS system for major races is great for those at the top of the ranking, less so for those below, and the further down you are the worse things become. Basically, you will lose the opportunity to sail against the best ........
Actually the exact opposite. Except for the grading race in the 2017 WC boats from the bottom 20 places on average sailed against a top 10 boat once every 10.2 races. Under SHRS each bottom 20 boat would sail against top 10 boats an average of 2 in every race.

Regards
Every race of the preliminary stages that is
Roy Granich

Hiljoball
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Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Hiljoball » 06 Jun 2017, 18:17

Zvonko wrote:Hi John

2. How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event?
Think it is up ti Judges: some can give an average on the regatta, some for the day and some just a place assigned.

Personally, I would recommend average of qualification or finals depend on where redress is given

Regards Zvonko
The International Judges Manual addresses this item, but it may not be well known.

International Judges Manual
K.28.14 Guidelines to types of redress that may be given

Qualifying and final series: Where a series consists of a qualifying and final series it is
important that any redress given should relate to and be based on results relevant to that
part of the series in which the incident occurred.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8

Miguel Salvador
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Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 02:00
Sail number: ESP 15
Club: Club de Vela Puerto de Andratx

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Miguel Salvador » 07 Jun 2017, 00:47

- The qualifying round consists of various races.
- These qualifying races are based on the position made in the previous ones maintaining a mix ability. So an average level skipper have the opportunity to race with and learn from the best skippers.
- Every race counts the position you get. I mean a 7th position is always 7 points.
- If a skipper has a bad race he may reset himself and try the next one in the same condition as everybody without having to start in lower fleets.
- Skippers race to win instead of being settled in a position that is ok for them (enough for going up or enough to stay in the fleet).

SHRS is not something new. It's a very common system in dinghies. There are some NCA's that are very interested in the SHRS.

Best regards,

Miguel Salvador

Roy648
Posts: 41
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 09 Jun 2017, 22:01

Hiljoball wrote:
Zvonko wrote:Hi John

2. How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event?
Think it is up ti Judges: some can give an average on the regatta, some for the day and some just a place assigned.

Personally, I would recommend average of qualification or finals depend on where redress is given

Regards Zvonko
The International Judges Manual addresses this item, but it may not be well known.

International Judges Manual
K.28.14 Guidelines to types of redress that may be given

Qualifying and final series: Where a series consists of a qualifying and final series it is
important that any redress given should relate to and be based on results relevant to that
part of the series in which the incident occurred.

John
Thank you John for providing the formal backing of Zvonko's comments.

The software that CRO and others use has now been updated to provide for this automatically by default but does have a toggle to allow average redress to on all races (I.e. maybe only 2 Finals races were completed).

Regards
Roy Granich

Gordon Davies
Posts: 14
Joined: 20 May 2015, 12:35

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Gordon Davies » 02 Jul 2017, 12:44

I believe both systems have advantages and disadvantages.

HMS gets very quickly to races between competitors at a similar level. This means that racing should be closer. It also allows for competitors to believe (however unrealistically) that they can go up a heat or two and sail with the top guys.

On the other hand - protest decisions have to made quickly (as a judge this is part of the attraction!), and a boat may sail to protect an first six position rather than sail to win the heat.

SHRS does not sort the fleet into ability groups until halfway through the competition, but when it does so the groupings are fixed. there is more racing with heats in which competitors may have widely differing abilities. There is far less stress on protest decisions.

However, as I understand it at the end of the competition the top boats may not be sailing in the same heat. I believe it is essential to find a system in which for the last race or even last two races the top sailors are sailing against each other in the same heat. This provides an element of sporting drama, especially when there are very few points between competitors that it is important to maintain especially at World or Continental Championships.

This is why the Olympic classes developed the medal race!

This is why I am suggesting that, especially for longer events, we work towards a formula that combines an element of promotion and demotion, but not after every heat. I also believe that the competition should end with a ranking race or series - in which the top group sail against each other, and each other level sails against each other. Team racing provides examples of this type of formula.

Gordon

Roy648
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Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 08 Aug 2017, 03:56

However, as I understand it at the end of the competition the top boats may not be sailing in the same heat. I believe it is essential to find a system in which for the last race or even last two races the top sailors are sailing against each other in the same heat. This provides an element of sporting drama, especially when there are very few points between competitors that it is important to maintain especially at World or Continental Championships.
Hi Gordon,

That is not quite correct. Just like the Optimists, Lasers, 29ers, 49ers, 470s etc there are two parts to the event. Once the qualifying series is complete the "at the end of the competition" the top boats will always be sailing against each other. The only significant difference between SHRS and that used by the above classes is that they change after each day's racing. That is quite logical in that they are sailing on different courses and we have the advantage of one course and close proximity so can shuffle far more often without great effort.

The number of races in which that happens will be determined by the point at which qualifying ends and finals start. The initial proposal by Croatia was at 50%, however that was based on their own experiences with more or less local racing. A more common thought would be somewhere in the 70-80% area. So in a 6 day event that would be around lunch time or later on day 5.
Roy Granich

Harry Drenth
Posts: 4
Joined: 12 Oct 2015, 18:51

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Harry Drenth » 29 Aug 2017, 21:48

Hi,

With great interest I have read this thread concerning SHRS.

The objections towards SHRS surprises me since the basics of SHRS are very common to 'big boat' sailing. Over the last 2 years we, sailing.today, have been highly involved in international sailing events on a daily basis. And more or less every well sized event was organized the same way SHRS is doing. (see remark of Roy). The only difference is that the re-grouping is done on a daily basis. This is just for a practical reason since boats can't change group on the water due to the usage of multiple courses and the fact that boats use a mark in the mast in which group they are competing. With sometimes over 400 boats cometing in one class it would become a mess.

Most events, like for example the 3 Laser Radial World championships we were involved in over the last 2 weeks, consist of a qualifying and final round. In these Laser Worlds events the qualifying round were 8 races sailed in 4 days and the finals were 4 races sailed in 2 days.
During the qualifying round at the end of every day the fleet was re-grouped based on the ranking with the A, B, C, C, B, A scheme. After 8 races the finals were created based on the ranking in a gold, silver, bronze fleet: First 50 in gold, next 50 in silver, etc.

Normally there is a standard discound scheme 1-4 0 discards, 5-10 1 discard. It is also common to allow only 1 discard in the finals after 2 or 3 races sailed in the finals, depending on the total number of races in the finals.

Penalties follow the standard penalties as descibed in RRS. RGD is decided by the jury which have the power to decide how to calculate the redress.

SHRS is, for me, the same method as used in 'big boat' events with the only difference to re-group after each race and with a slightly different allocation algorithm.

And guess what, I never ever heard one of these sailors complaint about this system. Everyone is used to this. The lesser gods who are in Silver or Bronze are happy about this because they can fight for a first place in this fleet. They are more happy to be in top of silver than be last in Gold.
For young kids this is important since they have the feeling that they can win something.

Advantages I see are:
- Protests can be handled after the races. Something which is common in big boat sailing because during the races there is no time to do so. So no delay during the races which leads to more race per day.
- As earlier said, more competition since every point counts. So no defensive sailing and pacts along top 4 or top 6 sailors.
- The re-grouping for the qualifying series will let every sailors sail against some of the top sailors since they are spread over the groups.
- Possibility to sail on multiple courses. So double or triple the number of races per day. Requires more staff and a location which allows multiple course.
- In the finals there is no need to keep the fleets 'in-sync'. So, due to any reason, gold can sail 10 races where silver sails 9 races.
- All scoring options are possible: count all points (Q + F), use carried forward method (Place after qualifiers counts as points which are non discardable).
- More sailors can compete in an event. When using multiple course you can go to 100+ competitors. This means either more budget for the organization or lower entry fee for the sailors. This all is a mattor of organization and what a class is expecting from an event. It is not a must, I'm only showing the options.
- One or more Medal races could be added to the event.

SHRS is an interesting and attractive way to organize bigger events. It wil increase the number of races and there will be more competition. It will give the race committee more flexibility to organize the races. Especially during the finals since fleets are handled as individual series.

I would say give it a try and use it during one of the future planned international events. Experience it, evaluate afterwards and then have your opinion. Long, long , long ago the same thing was done when HMS was introduced ..

With regards,

Harry Drenth
Sailing.today

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Olivier Cohen
Vice-chairman (Events)
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Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Olivier Cohen » 30 Aug 2017, 14:51

Hi Harry
In your message you raise all what you consider as positive points of SHRS, but you don't discuss negative points raised in previous discussion. I will try to balance your message by answering.

Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
Hi,

With great interest I have read this thread concerning SHRS.

The objections towards SHRS surprises me since the basics of SHRS are very common to 'big boat' sailing. Over the last 2 years we, sailing.today, have been highly involved in international sailing events on a daily basis. And more or less every well sized event was organized the same way SHRS is doing. (see remark of Roy). The only difference is that the re-grouping is done on a daily basis. This is just for a practical reason since boats can't change group on the water due to the usage of multiple courses and the fact that boats use a mark in the mast in which group they are competing. With sometimes over 400 boats cometing in one class it would become a mess.

Most events, like for example the 3 Laser Radial World championships we were involved in over the last 2 weeks, consist of a qualifying and final round. In these Laser Worlds events the qualifying round were 8 races sailed in 4 days and the finals were 4 races sailed in 2 days.
During the qualifying round at the end of every day the fleet was re-grouped based on the ranking with the A, B, C, C, B, A scheme. After 8 races the finals were created based on the ranking in a gold, silver, bronze fleet: First 50 in gold, next 50 in silver, etc.

Normally there is a standard discound scheme 1-4 0 discards, 5-10 1 discard. It is also common to allow only 1 discard in the finals after 2 or 3 races sailed in the finals, depending on the total number of races in the finals.

Penalties follow the standard penalties as descibed in RRS. RGD is decided by the jury which have the power to decide how to calculate the redress.

SHRS is, for me, the same method as used in 'big boat' events with the only difference to re-group after each race and with a slightly different allocation algorithm.

And guess what, I never ever heard one of these sailors complaint about this system. Everyone is used to this. The lesser gods who are in Silver or Bronze are happy about this because they can fight for a first place in this fleet. They are more happy to be in top of silver than be last in Gold.
For young kids this is important since they have the feeling that they can win something.

Good point with radiosailing compared with big boats is that we already have heats, so you can be happy to win C heat, and be promoted in B heat, have a chance to improve against better guys, and maybe be promoted to A heat to fight against the best.
Don't you think the guy stucked in Silver or Bronze heat will be frustrated with SHRS compared with HMS ? Don't you think he may leave the event earlier ? We are not olympic sailors, sailing is not our only topic in life ;)
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48

Advantages I see are:
- Protests can be handled after the races. Something which is common in big boat sailing because during the races there is no time to do so. So no delay during the races which leads to more race per day.
Protests have to be made after each qualification race with SHRS, while in HMS it has to be done after a heat only if boats are promoted. If not on a 5 heats event for example with protests on A heat, E, D, C can be run.
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
- As earlier said, more competition since every point counts. So no defensive sailing and pacts along top 4 or top 6 sailors.
If every points count, "defensive sailing" as you said is obviously necessary as well...
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
- The re-grouping for the qualifying series will let every sailors sail against some of the top sailors since they are spread over the groups.
For me that's the major issue with SHRS. Yes, during qualifying, people will race against some top sailors, it is just as HMS seeding races. So very heterogen level during half of the event, or even 80 % as proposed by Roy.
That means races with a lot of gaps between boats during half or more of the event. I can sail such races at local events here, no need to go to International events for this.
Big boats HAVE to make qualifying to avoid 150 boats on same line. We do it as well but HMS maintains interest during the whole event.
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
- Possibility to sail on multiple courses. So double or triple the number of races per day. Requires more staff and a location which allows multiple course.
Sorry Harry, but obviously, more staff and umpires means more cost, and I don't know a lot of location where multiple courses is possible. So just a theoric advantage...
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
- In the finals there is no need to keep the fleets 'in-sync'. So, due to any reason, gold can sail 10 races where silver sails 9 races.
This is quite elitist in my opinion to run more gold races than others
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
- All scoring options are possible: count all points (Q + F), use carried forward method (Place after qualifiers counts as points which are non discardable).
- More sailors can compete in an event. When using multiple course you can go to 100+ competitors. This means either more budget for the organization or lower entry fee for the sailors. This all is a mattor of organization and what a class is expecting from an event. It is not a must, I'm only showing the options.
As VC events I haven't seen events where we have so many competitors in waiting list
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
- One or more Medal races could be added to the event.
Medal races were created for television, so they can show "finals" for each class.
We don't have such "issues"
And it's still an elitist point.
Harry Drenth wrote:
29 Aug 2017, 21:48
SHRS is an interesting and attractive way to organize bigger events. It wil increase the number of races and there will be more competition. It will give the race committee more flexibility to organize the races. Especially during the finals since fleets are handled as individual series.

I would say give it a try and use it during one of the future planned international events. Experience it, evaluate afterwards and then have your opinion. Long, long , long ago the same thing was done when HMS was introduced ..
It's your opinion. Mine is that as far as I know SHRS has not been used for more than 2 heats events, and IOMICA doesn't plan to accept it for an international event before it has been tested thoroughly at a larger scale.

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