SHRS scoring system

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Zvonko
Posts: 21
Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 17:17
Location: Split

SHRS scoring system

Post by Zvonko » 05 Jun 2017, 09:12

Dear Friends

At World Championship in Pierrelatte, some of you had questions about SHRS scoring system while we were waiting for the protests, so my idea is to put all the answers and future questions here.

1. Do all competitors sails to the end of the championship?
Yes, at 50% - 60% of the championship you are fixed in the group depending on your overall standings.

2. Race tactics?
For overall victory, every heat has to be sailed to win. Every point counts and there is no reason to sail for 10th or 11th place in any heat, or to be satisfied with 5th in the “B” heat ( like me on race 23 B )

3. Overall scoring?
Smaller differences in total points make an event more interesting, for everyone. The principle is always - Sail to win each race.

4. Waiting for protest hearing?
There is no delay as each heat is a race for its own. Movement between heats only applies to next race and place over the finish line can be used, no waiting for results of the hearing.

5. Number of boats in a championship
For a championship with 80 entries, they can be divided into 5 heats of 16 boats or 4 heats of 20 boats = more racing or fewer racing days for competitors.
Championship can be with 100 entries 5 heats of 20 boats

6. Prizegiving
It is a suggestion to organisers that winner (or top 3) of any final group get a prize, reason more to keep on racing and having fun.

Attachment is SHRS rules.

Reards Zvonko Jelacic
Attachments
SHRS.pdf
(29.62 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

Hiljoball
Posts: 262
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 01:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Hiljoball » 05 Jun 2017, 19:04

Hi Zvonko,

I think there are some topics missing from the procedures described in the pdf.

How will points carry over from Part A to part B - it should be spelled out.
There are several options in use including
a) carry points over,
b) all start at zero,
c) start with points based on assigned place, eg first gets 1, second gets 2 etc for each fleet.
d) I have seen Part B of an event use double points.

How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event? The issue is that statistically, the 'data set' - (the quality of skippers in the heats) for Part A and Part B of the regatta are quite different.

For example for Redress, a skipper finishes around 4th or 5th place the heats of Part A. He makes it in to Gold Fleet for Part B. In the first race of part B (against the top skippers) he finishes 15th. In the next race he is disabled and requests redress. What redress to we assign? Avg points for the whole event would give him much better points that he would expect to finish in a heat in the Gold fleet.

A similar statistical question exists for discards - do we discard high points place from the Gold finish and keep his low points finishes from Part A of the event? Or do we keep the score from Part A and start over a new discard table for Part B?

I think the procedures need to spell out these decisions.

Regards

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8

RoyL
Posts: 705
Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 22:03

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by RoyL » 05 Jun 2017, 22:10

The proposed SHRS system for major races is great for those at the top of the ranking, less so for those below, and the further down you are the worse things become. Basically, you will lose the opportunity to sail against the best or move up in class half way through the event. It is hard to understand why anyone for example would want to stay the entire ten days or so of a major regatta only to at best be "Champion of E Fleet". If the goal is to have more races for elite sailors then hold qualifying races around the world; cut the number of participants down to one or two fleets; and hold a smaller event. If there is really a need to have more elite sailors race together at the end, maybe make the last half day of the event only for A fleet, but substituting SHRS for HMS to me is the wrong direction to move toward.

Zvonko
Posts: 21
Joined: 21 Feb 2008, 17:17
Location: Split

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Zvonko » 06 Jun 2017, 09:32

Hi John


1. How will points carry over from Part A to part B - it should be spelled out
In the file is written - RRS Appendix A Low Point Scoring system shall apply for all races (qualifying and finals)
You carry all the races in finals and you can discard what is best for you (A (gold) fleet will probably discard more from final, E probably more for qualifications, but on the event, on average you will have 13 qualifications and 13 final ( total 26 ) and only 4 discards, in the end, it is same for all in their final group.
If you have any other systems some of your races won't count and we want that every race count and you sail to win it.

2. How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event?
Think it is up ti Judges: some can give an average on the regatta, some for the day and some just a place assigned.

Personally, I would recommend average of qualification or finals depend on where redress is given

Regards Zvonko

Roy648
Posts: 40
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 06 Jun 2017, 09:57

Hi Roy
RoyL wrote:The proposed SHRS system for major races is great for those at the top of the ranking, less so for those below, and the further down you are the worse things become. Basically, you will lose the opportunity to sail against the best ........
Actually the exact opposite. Except for the grading race in the 2017 WC boats from the bottom 20 places on average sailed against a top 10 boat once every 10.2 races. Under SHRS each bottom 20 boat would sail against top 10 boats an average of 2 in every race.

Regards
Roy Granich

Roy648
Posts: 40
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 06 Jun 2017, 11:53

Roy648 wrote:Hi Roy
RoyL wrote:The proposed SHRS system for major races is great for those at the top of the ranking, less so for those below, and the further down you are the worse things become. Basically, you will lose the opportunity to sail against the best ........
Actually the exact opposite. Except for the grading race in the 2017 WC boats from the bottom 20 places on average sailed against a top 10 boat once every 10.2 races. Under SHRS each bottom 20 boat would sail against top 10 boats an average of 2 in every race.

Regards
Every race of the preliminary stages that is
Roy Granich

Hiljoball
Posts: 262
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 01:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Hiljoball » 06 Jun 2017, 18:17

Zvonko wrote:Hi John

2. How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event?
Think it is up ti Judges: some can give an average on the regatta, some for the day and some just a place assigned.

Personally, I would recommend average of qualification or finals depend on where redress is given

Regards Zvonko
The International Judges Manual addresses this item, but it may not be well known.

International Judges Manual
K.28.14 Guidelines to types of redress that may be given

Qualifying and final series: Where a series consists of a qualifying and final series it is
important that any redress given should relate to and be based on results relevant to that
part of the series in which the incident occurred.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8

Miguel Salvador
Posts: 4
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 02:00
Sail number: ESP 15
Club: Club de Vela Puerto de Andratx

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Miguel Salvador » 07 Jun 2017, 00:47

- The qualifying round consists of various races.
- These qualifying races are based on the position made in the previous ones maintaining a mix ability. So an average level skipper have the opportunity to race with and learn from the best skippers.
- Every race counts the position you get. I mean a 7th position is always 7 points.
- If a skipper has a bad race he may reset himself and try the next one in the same condition as everybody without having to start in lower fleets.
- Skippers race to win instead of being settled in a position that is ok for them (enough for going up or enough to stay in the fleet).

SHRS is not something new. It's a very common system in dinghies. There are some NCA's that are very interested in the SHRS.

Best regards,

Miguel Salvador

Roy648
Posts: 40
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 01:01
Location: New Zealand

Re: SHRS scoring system

Post by Roy648 » 09 Jun 2017, 22:01

Hiljoball wrote:
Zvonko wrote:Hi John

2. How will discards and redress be handled for Part B of the event?
Think it is up ti Judges: some can give an average on the regatta, some for the day and some just a place assigned.

Personally, I would recommend average of qualification or finals depend on where redress is given

Regards Zvonko
The International Judges Manual addresses this item, but it may not be well known.

International Judges Manual
K.28.14 Guidelines to types of redress that may be given

Qualifying and final series: Where a series consists of a qualifying and final series it is
important that any redress given should relate to and be based on results relevant to that
part of the series in which the incident occurred.

John
Thank you John for providing the formal backing of Zvonko's comments.

The software that CRO and others use has now been updated to provide for this automatically by default but does have a toggle to allow average redress to on all races (I.e. maybe only 2 Finals races were completed).

Regards
Roy Granich

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