HMS and Scoring of DNF, OCS etc

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ole_peder
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HMS and Scoring of DNF, OCS etc

Post by ole_peder » 03 Nov 2006, 21:46

We have been sailing after the HMS system for a long time,I personally like the system since it gives everybody starting in a race a possibility to win.

After going in the system i detail there are som minor things that I feel isnt so logical, that is whenone have a DNF, OSC and so on. Since all heats together counts as one race a DNF, OCS and so on should give equal points no matter what heat one was in when it happened,
As it is today, if I have undestood it right a DNF in a A heat with 20 boats racing gives 21 points versus a DNF in a E heat which gives say 81 if 80 boats was racing all together. Both did not complete the race and hence should score 1 more than the boats scheduled to race all together?

The heat ordering systeme is ok, the DNF boat in the A heat starts next race in B.

Any Comments?
Ole Peder Bjørsom
Chairman NOR NCA

ralph kelley
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HMS

Post by ralph kelley » 04 Nov 2006, 17:46

Back in '02 I was concerned about what I considered a weird scoring situation with any "text" scores -- DMC, DNF, DSQ and the like.

On multiple fleets, and particular with a 5 heat regatta, the HMS has a unique approach to (1) scoring and (2) placing boats in the next heat. If they were in a high heat (such as A or B) a boat could not sail in his scheduled heat and still be scored better than some of the boats that actually enter the race. Furthermore, he might be placed in a heat higher for the next race than some boats that did enter the race.

The key to understanding the system is understanding the difference between scores and places.

I did get a response on my inquiry on understanding the system and I'll be glad to share it with you.

Send me your e-mail address and I'll forward you the response.

Mine i: rskelley_r_d at sbcglobal dot net


Ralph

ole_peder
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Post by ole_peder » 05 Nov 2006, 09:44

Ralph
I tried to mail you, but it just bounched back

maybe you could try mine?

ole-peder at modellseiling dot org
Ole Peder Bjørsom
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awallin
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Post by awallin » 05 Nov 2006, 10:45

Hi,

one argument in favor of the way it is now is that if a sailor starts out in the E-heat and then sails very well, being promoted E->D->C->B->A.
so he's sailed 4 very good races allways placing in the top 4 or 6 in each heat. Then in the A heat his battery dies or he gets some other gear failure. I don't think it's fair to score him as last in E-fleet in this situation.

AW

ole_peder
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Post by ole_peder » 05 Nov 2006, 12:57

Well its still the same race he don't finish. Yes I admit that he has had 4 good races, but he must have had some poor races before that starting in the E heat.

I mean it doesn't matter how many good races he/she have had before a DNF or likewise it is still a DNF. The bonus for the good sailing is that he/she starts only one heat down and not in the E fleet.

Take an example from big fleets in big boat racing, if a boat have 4 wins and in the 5th it gets an DNF shall it score less for that DNF then if it had done 4 poor races in the previous races??
Ole Peder Bjørsom
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Nigel28
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Post by Nigel28 » 06 Nov 2006, 00:11

I agree with Ole on this.
Racing in heats and series is not just about the one heat/race, it is about good preperation to be able to compete for an extended period.
Take the example of the boat that gets promoted all the way to A fleet.
If the boat can only last these 5 heats it would not win a series anyway.
If it is something unusual and the boat is ready to sail in the next race it would start in B fleet, much easier to advance and score better points.
If a boat in A fleet has a breakdown and misses 2 races he will score A+1, B+1, C+1. A much better score than the Guy who races and finishes every race and places in the middle of D fleet.
Does that seem fair?
Nigel Ashman
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Post by Chairman » 06 Nov 2006, 09:57

I would have thought that the principal of HMS is to simulate a full fleet race that needs to be sailed in multi heats due to r/c constraints. because we work on heats being completed and allowing promotion of boats to the next heat we are providing an oppertunity for any skipper in any heat to actually win that race. (Better than the old system) the catch here is that the heats have been completed. so after the completion of a heat all boats apart from those to be promoted are given a place and deamed to have finishes. So in A heat with say 20 boats there are only the top 20 places in the race left. One could argue that the last boat would be 20th weather it DNF etc or not. the benefit of sailing in the A heat (or any heat other than E) is knowing you have sailed the race (or previous races ) well enough to be in a position above those that have already finished (lower heats) I understand what nigel is getting at but it does not take into account the above principal. and if you look at his example it would mean that the A fleet boat that missed 2 races in a 80 boat fleet would have a score of 243 and his D heat finisher would have a score of 210. considering that in the A skippers 1st race all the boats apart from the last (read front ) 20 had finished. Is that fare. If we agree with both principals then we would have him get 20 in the A he missed then as a dns in the next 2 races he gets 81 for each race but really should start in E fleet. Then there is the question of going back heats if you do not finish and was if it no your falt (out of control boat takes you out) and what about redress and were should you start after redress and and .
Sorry I am happy with the current system not perfect but fair.
Chairman
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Nigel28
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Post by Nigel28 » 08 Nov 2006, 05:00

I would have thought that the principal of HMS is to simulate a full fleet race
In the full fleet EVERYONE who does not finish scores fleet +1, the point exactly.
One could argue that the last boat would be 20th weather it DNF etc or not
But this guy has not completed this race. Just because he did well in the last race and is in A heat why should he be rewarded with bonus points if he does not complete this race? I think the rest of the system is fine, he does not need to go straight to E heat. If the jury decides to give redress then the system for that is allready in place and works just as well as the rest of HMS.
considering that in the A skippers 1st race all the boats apart from the last (read front ) 20 had finished.
Exactly the point, all these boats have finished thier part of the race the top 20 boats still need to finish the race for the places (read points) to be distributed.

Take away the heats and look at it again, in a fleet of 80 boats all racing at the same time should the top 20 boats from the last race be guaranteed a top 20 place even if they do not finish?
I would have thought that the principal of HMS is to simulate a full fleet race
The bonus for having sailed well and being in A heat at the start of the race is that he only gets demoted 1 heat per race until he is ready to join the fleet again.
But if he does not even finish this race or start the next one IMHO why should he be given 20th then 40th place (again read points) while the middle of the fleet guy who sails his heart out gets 2 41st places / points? Every point counts, especially in the middle of the field.
Nigel Ashman
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Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 08 Nov 2006, 06:09

A boat that started in E, wins every race up to A, and loses a rudder servo just before the finish line, and cannot finish has beaten every boat up to the top 20. No way should he be "demoted" past that position. He HAS finished the race, 4 out of 5 times, in fact.
It would be VERY wrong to score him equal to a last place E boat.
Steve Landeau
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Nigel28
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Post by Nigel28 » 08 Nov 2006, 07:56

Very true Steve
This could be covered by something like the following.
If a boat is promoted from a lower heat and does not finish its next heat, it should be awarded the position from the lower heat finish.
In other words, he gets awarded his best finish.
Nigel Ashman
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Andy Stevenson
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Post by Andy Stevenson » 08 Nov 2006, 11:42

There are valid arguments from both points of view; I’ll be interested to see where this conversation goes.

While I have yet to form an opinion, I would like to comment on this:
Greg wrote:I would have thought that the principal of HMS is to simulate a full fleet race
I think this will ultimately fail. We can’t have an 80 boat fleet on the water. HMS is the alternative to single fleet racing, not a simulation of it. I think we need to develop it along those lines.

In discussing HMS and how to develop it I think we should concentrate on how HMS best serves radio sailing, not how it best emulates full size fleet racing.

Cheers
Andy Stevenson
"A little pain never hurt anyone!" Sam, aged 11

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Olivier Cohen
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 09 Nov 2006, 00:06

Nigel28 wrote:Very true Steve
This could be covered by something like the following.
If a boat is promoted from a lower heat and does not finish its next heat, it should be awarded the position from the lower heat finish.
In other words, he gets awarded his best finish.
This idea is interesting, even if it complicates HMS...

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Post by Lester » 10 Nov 2006, 11:56

Nigel28 wrote:If a boat is promoted from a lower heat and does not finish its next heat, it should be awarded the position from the lower heat finish
Hi Nigel

Very interesting idea. For the fleets I sail in, once it becomes clear who is in the first four, we usually completely change the way we sail to make sure that we do not get in each other's way. So I might be first in B heat at the start of the second lap, but couldn't care if I slip to 2nd or 3rd by the end. Similarly, I might be 4th but provided there is enough cushion to 5th I'm not going to try and out-sail the boats in 3rd or 2nd place. So the final places in B heat are usually stitched-up by a mutual understanding between the boats well before the finish... In this sense, we are all "equal" when we arrive in A heat and have made no attempt to maximise our "exit" score. Seems fair to me that, if I fail to finish A, then I'm due my DNF score of "# in A + 1", rather than whatever my B score was.
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ole_peder
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Post by ole_peder » 10 Nov 2006, 18:44

There are some issues which was made clear to me during a discussion in Norway, and which also Steve Landeau pointed out.
The lower heat guy working his way through the heats finishes in fact every heat he is promoted from so the idea to give him scores for the best placing is fair and logic, but as pointed out before, complicates the HMS since one have to keep track of the promoted from previous heat. But again we already do, don't we?

But what do we do with the A heat guy which gets an DNF? To give him a full score seems not to be fair compared to the upcomming guy? The number schedulet to sail +1 gives him the same points as if the best B heat sailor promoted gets an DNF, so far so god?

So what do we gain here? well a system which is kind of logic but more complicated. If we keep the old system the promoted guys gain max 3 points in the best case in what is described above. So based on this I would probably conclude that we keep the current system due to simplicity.

There are still some issues with the consecutive DNC.

There can be many reasons for a DNC, but common for them all is that they are not on the course competing, if so they should not score for races they are not participating in. If the DNC is a result of failiures not connected to something happened on the course I would say that a full DNS score would be apropiate.
If the DNC is a result of a situation racing and a redress is given in the race it happened some compensation could be given for this?
Ole Peder Bjørsom
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