World Champs 2009

Discuss class championship regulations, sailing instructions, umpiring, observing, scoring software, fleet racing systems, forthcoming international events, etc

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Ken Dobbie
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Post by Ken Dobbie » 02 Mar 2009, 00:14

NZL had three entries, Vickers 9, Smale 48 and McPherson 55.

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 02 Mar 2009, 06:28

Zoran

I believe your calculations for Stage 2 were incorrect.

Zoran
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Post by Zoran » 02 Mar 2009, 08:11

You are right. The results I had from Marseille were incorrect. I really don't remember when I found it on the web, but certainly was not from the offical organizer's site. Please take my appologies.
Zoran Grubisa
CRO 69

Sen Peter Gilkes
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Post by Sen Peter Gilkes » 23 Mar 2009, 02:46

List of Allocated Places for Stage 1 and Stage 2
Last minute applications for Stage 2 may be sent to barbadosworlds@gmail.com before March 28, 2009

IOM BARBADOS WORLDS 09
ALLOCATION STAGE 1 and STAGE 2 March 20, 2009
COUNTRY NAME SAIL NUMBER
Gibson, Brad AUS 42
Argentina 1 Pollono, Ricardo ARG 63
Australia 1 Cole-Cook, John
2 Butler, William
3 Turton,David AUS 12
Barbados 1 Allen, Peter
2 Durnat, Chris
3 Gonsalves, Tony
4 Maingot, Dane
5 Hoyos, Doc BAR 74
BAR 97
BAR 51
BAR47
BAR 14

Brazi 1 Bercht, Jorge
2 Stier, Pedro BRA 16
BRA 23
Canada 1 Kidd, Hugh
2 Van Rossem, Peter
3 Majic, Marko
4 Dobson, Iain
5 Schmidt, Jan Christian CAN 117
CAN 66
CAN 36
CAN 115
CAN 24
Croatia 1 Jelaciv, Zvonko
2 Matic, Marko
3 Kovacevic, Ante
4 Ukas, Mirko
5 Skrlj, Mario
6 Grubisa, Robert CRO 35
CRO 89
CRO 30
CRO 80
CRO 82
CRO 68
Spain 1 Moreno, Alfonso
2 Gelpi, Joan ESP 50
ESP 169
France 1 Carre, Alexis
2 Rossignol, Yannica
3 Montero, Patrice
4 Crasse, Yinn ?
5 Chatin, Achille
6 Bres, Remi
7 Alazia, Marc FRA 73
FRA 22
FRA 38
FRA 108
FRA (35) 16
FRA 42
FRA 188
Great Britain 1 Roberts, Martin
2 Walsh, Robert
3 Bantock, Graham
4 Binkd, Ken
5 Potter, David
6 Dennis, Mark
7 Edwards, Tony
8 Clarke, Simon
9 Cleave, John
10 Harris, Chris
11 Clifton, Mike GBR 22
GBR 25
GBR 95
GBR 83
GBR 20
GBR 19
GBR 75
GBR 94
GBR 44
GBR 21
GBR 02
Germany 1 Scharmer, Michael
2 Lagemann, Dieter
3 Daub, Kim
4 Posmik, Carsten
5 Lagemann, Birgit GER 09
GER 100
GER 40
GER 07
GER 08
Ireland 1 Morehead, John
2 Crosbie, Andrew IRL 77
IRL 132
Netherlands 1 de Jong, Joop
2 Geurts, Walter Ned 141
Ned 91
Portugal 3 Maio Gomes, Paulo
4 Afonso Freitas, Rui POR 56
POR 54
Sweden 1 Brunnhage, Claes
2 Olson, Tom SWE 98
SWE 45
USA 1 Mackey, Craig
2 Rogers, Dennis
3 Weiss, Jeff

Castelli, John
Silverman, Richard USA 29
USA 43
USA 30

USA 71

Guests 1 Lundberg, Per
2 Andersen, Bruce SWE 69




Allocation of Places for the IOM 2009 World Championship Regatta


Stage 1
8.6.1

Brad Gibson - 1 ARG - 2 AUS - 4 BAR - 6 BRA – 2
CAN - 2 CRO - 3 DEN - 2 ESP - 4 FIN - 2
FRA - 4 GBR - 8 GER - 2 IRL - 2 ITA – 3
MLT - 2 NED - 2 NOR - 3 NZL - 3 POR - 2
RSA - 2 SWE - 2 USA - 3 ESC - 10 TOTAL - 76


Stage2
8.7.1
1. AUS 11. FRA 21. CRO 31. RSA 41. NZL 51. ARG
2. ESP 12. USA 22. FRA 32. RSA 42. GER 52. BRA
3. AUS 13. NOR 23. FRA 33. NED 43. GER 53. FIN
4. GBR 14. ESP 24. FRA 34. AUS 44. FIN 54. BRA
5. GBR 15. USA 25. CRO 35. CRO 45. NED
6. CRO 16. POR 26. FRA 36. CRO 46. GER
7. ESP 17. AUS 27. ITA 37. NZL 47. GER
8. FRA 18. AUS 28. CAN 38. FIN 48. IRL
9. NZL 19. CRO 29. GER 39. DEN 49. IRL
10. ITA 20. AUS 30. CRO 40. USA 50. USA

Tony Edwards
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Post by Tony Edwards » 14 Apr 2009, 17:35

Is anybody else having difficulty contacting Kim Rawlins at Virgin to arrange flights. All I get when I phone is the Caribean call centre and no knowledge of Kim. She has not answered my last email so I don't know where I stand with the booking. Does anybody have a telephone extension for her so I can ring direct please. I have tried Virgin in UK but they can't help to contact her either.
TonyE GBR75

Sen Peter Gilkes
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Post by Sen Peter Gilkes » 15 Apr 2009, 05:32

Tony,

I am not sure why you are not getting thru but this lady has already booked 39 persons for BGI, may I suggest a call to 1246 436 2110 or 1246 228 4886 or by email at kim.rawlins@fly.virgin.com

I will recheck her email address tomorrow when they open for business.

Tony Edwards
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Location: Nottingham UK

Post by Tony Edwards » 15 Apr 2009, 23:14

Thanks for the information and I have now managed to get through to Kim Rawlins by phone. For anybody else trying to phone her extension number is 254 which saves getting "lost" in the call centre.
TonyE GBR75

Sen Peter Gilkes
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Post by Sen Peter Gilkes » 16 Apr 2009, 03:11

Great did she assist you in getting sorted out?

The dates quoted for travel are a bit flexible should anyone want to extend their stay, Kim can assist in making this happen.

Tony Edwards
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Location: Nottingham UK

Post by Tony Edwards » 16 Apr 2009, 11:05

Yes, Kim was very helpful and I am now fully sorted. It was just getting through to her by phone that I found difficult and I was not getting response to emails. She has now circulated a new email to all those that have contacted her.

What I really needed to check was whether our luggage could be "fixed" in the plane in the usual way with velcro but aparently Virgin have some big rubber bands specially for this purpose! These rubber bands also work the propellers.
TonyE GBR75

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 15 May 2009, 00:39

Proposals that have been voted in by the class as well as the GBR request for interpretation have been sent to Jan Dejmo for ISAF review. He has not replied as of yet.

We need to publish the Sailing Instructions for the World Championship Regatta, so to eliminate a possible bit of confusion, the following rules will be changed for the duration of the WC by consent of the EXEC:

Additions to Sailing Instructions for 2009 World Championships

In accordance with A.7.2, the following class rule changes (underlined) apply for the duration of the 2009 World Championship Regatta:

C.4.3 Corrector weight(s) to achieve compliance with C.4.2, if used, shall be fixed in/on the hull and shall not be altered or moved during an event.

D.2.4 (a)(1) One or more receivers.

D.2.4 (a)(6) One device to indicate battery voltage.

F.2.5 Materials
(a) Materials for rig fittings shall be unrestricted except where specified.


G.3.1 (b)(1) One or more layers of tabling which at the luff may form a pocket for a mast spar jackstay.

G.3.1 (b)(14) Self colored ply.

G.4.1 (b)(1) One or more layers of tabling which at the luff may form a pocket for a headsail stay.

G.4.1 (b)(11) Self colored ply.
Last edited by Bruce Andersen on 17 May 2009, 21:07, edited 2 times in total.

JThompson
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Post by JThompson » 15 May 2009, 05:50

nevermind....
Jim Thompson
IOM - USA 370 - Ericca

Tony Edwards
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Post by Tony Edwards » 15 May 2009, 12:20

Bruce, I have been trying to see how these rule amendments for Barbados fit into the existing rules but think the numbering may be incorrect or transposed for the bits about "tabling" and "self coloured ply". These should I think relate to G3.1 and G4.1 and not G1.3 and G1.4.
and the self coloured ply should be item 14 on the options list.

I have asked for this to be checked and we will get back to you.
TonyE GBR75

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 16 May 2009, 01:48

Tony

Quite right! Dyslexia strikes again. Will fix. Thanks

Bruce

valpro
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Post by valpro » 16 May 2009, 09:35

Having hastily looked up the relevant rules I see that 3.1(b)(2) and its sister rule 4.1... relate to cringles etc in the head. Did you mean 3.1(a)(2) etc? and what does 'self coloured ply' mean?
Val

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 17 May 2009, 02:05

The issue of colored ply was put in to address any issues regarding the legality of using contrasting colored tabling.

Probably an insignificant point, but as you know, sometimes debate can focus on minutae.

Lester
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Post by Lester » 17 May 2009, 13:45

Apart from the faulty logic and suggestion incorporated into the GBR request for interpretation, what are these issues, please?

As is well known, it is difficult to describe in closed class rules absolutely everything that is permitted. Colour has never been mentioned before as being a relevant property of materials or fittings that requires restriction.

If there is actually a problem with the class rules on this issue, why not simply state instead, "The colour of materials is not restricted"?

The GBR suggestion says that the intention is that "coloured sail material is optional", but this intention is not achieved by the proposed rule change, which instead restricts sail material to being 'self-coloured'.

Expert advice on this is clearly required before placing something into Sailing Instructions which will only give problems later on.
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 17 May 2009, 18:48

When you hold the Lester Gilbert World Championships, you can write whatever "expert" sailing instructions you desire.

When you actually sail in the IOM World Championships you can protest what you think are flawed sailing instructions.

But unless and until such time, perhaps you could consider backing off just a little bit?

Just a personal opinion....

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Post by Lester » 17 May 2009, 18:55

Hi Roy

Apart from your usual knee-jerk approach of pissing on me, rubbishing the messenger, and personalising the discussion while totally ignoring the substance of the comments,

What is it exactly about my suggested replacement Sailing Instruction that you find is in error?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 17 May 2009, 20:42

Did you try to convince the GBR sailing community and the executives of MYA that this request for interpretation contained "faulty logic and suggestion"?

Might I suggest that the time to debate your sailing association's request was during its inception rather than after it bore the stamp of the GBR radio sailing organization and was sent to the international community?

On the issue of color, we have set precedence in our Class Rules D.2.1(b) concerning pigment in hull GRP.

Inasmuch as these rule changes only last for the duration of the WC's, they will not become a problem later on unless ISAF approves them as written and we democratically incorporate them into our class rules.

If that happens, they only become a problem for folks who do not agree with them. Until that group convinces the majority, well it's sort of too bad for them.

Reminds me of one of my favorite Albert Einstein quotes about E=MC2 -- "More than just a good idea - it's the law!"
Last edited by Bruce Andersen on 17 May 2009, 20:58, edited 1 time in total.

Lester
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Post by Lester » 17 May 2009, 20:44

Hi Bruce

What is it exactly about my suggested replacement Sailing Instruction that you find is in error?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 17 May 2009, 21:03

Lester

I'm unclear on what replacement SI's you have suggested to us. The race organizers along with the Principal Race Officer and ESC have been working on the SI's for the WC's for some time now. Don't recall asking you for your input nor do I recall receiving any from you. Sorry if you sent me something that I missed.

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Post by Lester » 17 May 2009, 21:25

Why not simply state instead, "The colour of materials is not restricted"?
Lester Gilbert
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RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 17 May 2009, 23:03

Lester: You can't (to use your language) "piss on" Bruce Andersen and the IOM Worlds and then, when pushed back, claim to be the victim.

When you express an opinion in a hostile and condescending manner, don't expect to get a warm and open response.

I personally, think Bruce and company are doing a great job working to set up a great regatta.

Also, I believe you rather prominently posted here that you no longer would respond to anything I said.

That's lasted how long? Two weeks? Three?

I was kind of hoping you would stick to your word. Oh, well.

Now, can this thread return to the real world?

Lester
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Post by Lester » 17 May 2009, 23:54

Hi Roy

why not simply state instead, "The colour of materials is not restricted"?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Bruce Andersen
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 18 May 2009, 00:00

Simply because that is not the way the request for interpretation reads. I have neither the reason nor the authority to change what the MYA has written.

You might want to ask the MYA Technical Committee to adopt your suggestion.

You never know - they might see it your way and change the wording!

I understand that the ISAF DM's that have voted are unanimous in approving Motion B (to elect a new PC of RSD). You could lobby whomever is duly elected to this new Permanent Committee to implement your changes to the MYA request if the MYA chooses not to listen to you.

Not sure when the new PC will come into office however - might be too late to affect the temporary rule changes in effect at the WC's.

Lester
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Post by Lester » 18 May 2009, 08:32

We are talking about the Sailing Instructions for the Worlds. Let's discuss the proposed sailing instruction, rather than weasling around with irrelevancy.

One of these instructions changes the IOM Class Rules as follows:

"Add:
G.3.1 (b)(14) Self colored ply."

The intention is to permit coloured sail material, at corner reinforcements and tabling for example. However, this intention is not achieved by the proposed instruction, which instead restricts sail material to being 'self-coloured'. The effect of this instruction is probably to limit all sail material to being 'natural' in colour -- ie, with no colour apart from that of its 'natural' ingredients (ie, without any colouring or pigment added). The effect will be to rule out of class 99% of all sails.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines self-colour as follows:

1. A single uniform colour. 2. The natural colour of something.

There is inherent ambiguity, then, in the proposed instruction, since these two definitions mean rather different things. Definition 1 originates in the design and fashion industry, while definition 2 originates in manufacturing and engineering. I would expect that it is definition 2 which would be assumed by any Protest Committee.

The 'natural colour of something' means that no colouring agents, no pigmentation, and no additives have been added to affect the natural state of whatever the 'something' is. While I don't know what the 'natural' colour of Dacron or Mylar is, for sure the blue, orange, black, red, etc corner reinforcements have had pigments added. The proposed instruction makes these materials illegal, and with them 99% of all sails.
Lester Gilbert
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valpro
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Post by valpro » 18 May 2009, 10:15

I have followed this topic with mounting disbelief. Firstly that anyone felt there to be a need to raise it at all in the light of the use of coloured luff tapes and corner patches in the full sized world since the advent of Terylene cloth at the end of the 50's. In 1962 I bought blue terylene sails for my Scorpion, in 1964 I bought red sails for my Fireball, Bruce Banks sails used dark blue luff tapes as his 'signature', and other makes followed suit with red, black,yellow, light bue etc. It wasn't an issue then and it has only gone out of fashion now with the arrival of more high tech fabrics and methods. If North Sails decided to use some space age luff tape with a holographic finish then - so what- it doesnt make the boat go. any faster.
Secondly, in spite of all the preceding verbiage if we are going down this route then may I suggest that the whole ridiculous matter is best served by amending G.3.1.(a).(1) by adding the words 'of any colour' and doing the same toG.4.1.(a).(1).
Since the ERS definition of 'soft sail' includes tabling and patches then you have a simple definition that will not be as confusing for anyone struggling with written English and wondering just what 'self coloured 'means. I didnt understand it either and it's my first language.
And Lester, please stick to what you understand best, which is the RRS and leave measurement matters to those who are trained to write, use and interpret them, then things get less confusing all round.
Val

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Post by Lester » 18 May 2009, 10:25

Hi Val

Good to see you agree with me that the proposed sailing instruction is flawed.



Added 18 May 2009 13:40 --

Before going too much further, there is a line of thinking which says that the proposed instruction simply is not necessary. I think it is understood (but nowhere actually written!) that class rules deal with the relevant properties of materials, fittings, and equipment, and do not deal with irrelevant properties. For almost all purposes the colour of something is simply not relevant, and only where it is relevant is it mentioned, such as Val notes, the rule about the lack of pigment in the interior hull lay-up. Even though we have closed rules (if not explicitly permitted, it is prohibited), these are understood to only deal with relevant properties. To be silly for a moment: the rules nowhere deal with the haptic (touch and feel) or olfactory (smell) properties of the boat; yet no one would seriously question whether we need a rule G1.1 stating that haptic and olfactory properties of materials are unrestricted...

Wording an instruction which achieves the desired intention (coloured sail material) is non-trivial, mainly because the desired intention is not sufficiently clear.

There are three major choices: (a) Are coloured sails (ie everything) to be permitted? (b) Just coloured reinforcement, patches, and tabling? (c) Or coloured reinforcements, batten pockets, stiffening, tabling, attachments, and other parts as permitted by class rules.

The sailing instruction to permit one or other of these choices would, I suggest, better be something like:

(a) G.2.6 MATERIALS
The colour of sails is unrestricted.

(b) G.2.6 MATERIALS
G.2.6.1 Definition. 'Self-coloured' means 'naturally coloured free of additional pigmentation'.
G.2.6.2 The colour of sail reinforcement, patches, and tabling is unrestricted. The body of the sail and other sail parts shall be self-coloured.

(c) G.2.6 MATERIALS
G.2.6.1 Definition. 'Self-coloured' means 'naturally coloured free of additional pigmentation'.
Except for the body of the sail, the colour of sail parts is unrestricted. The body of the sail shall be self-coloured.


Option (a) gives a problem, because of Class Rule G.3.1.(a).2, where the sail must be of the same ply. What happens if, though I start out with the same ply, I colour the sail panels differently? Is this still the same ply?


And option (b) continues to give problems -- what about draft stripes, for example?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 18 May 2009, 17:53

Don't feed the troll....

Lester
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Post by Lester » 18 May 2009, 18:35

Hi Roy

Apart from continuing to piss on me, rubbish the messenger, and personalise the discussion while totally ignoring the substance of the problem,

Where, exactly, can one or other of my suggested replacement Sailing Instructions be improved?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

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