2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Discuss class championship regulations, sailing instructions, umpiring, observing, scoring software, fleet racing systems, forthcoming international events, etc

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Barry Fox CAN262
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 07 Nov 2010, 07:47

You know, if the Class Championship Rules, the Championship Questionnaire, and the Event Management Manual (all posted on the ICA website) were read first then many of the specific things being talked about would be discovered to not be required. There is a lot of guidance in the Manual but quite a bit of it is just advice and suggestions that have been incorporated by learning from the operation of previous events. Many of the previous Events Sub Committees have done what looks like an excellent job of creating these documents and that effort will continue I am sure.

Just an opinion, but in our terms these are really big events. These are our Olympics in a way. And there is a good chance that we are falling into the same circumstances that are affecting things like the Olympics. That is, each new host tries to improve (or maybe just one up) the previous event to make it the "most memorable" and whatever that addition is now becomes the unwritten "norm" for the next host.

If we got back to the basics, as outlined in all those documents, maybe the cost would come down. I'm going to guess that the cost of producing the event, even at the basic level, is going to not be a lot different if is entry is big (50 boats is a pretty big event) or really big. Certainly, the more days you occupy and operate a facility, the more raw dollars it takes.

But at least read the guiding documentation and figure out from there where the change could come from. The low hanging fruit (goodies bags, opening ceremonies, etc.) are well and good but my guess is that they are but a drop in the bucket compared to the real costly items.

Personal opinion only, not an official statement.
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Neil Armstrong
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 08 Nov 2010, 22:54

Hi Barry,

much appreciate your input, at least you speak sense and stay on subject.

Could you be kind enough to tell us how/where the ICA website is, as mentioned in your reply, a link would be great as i am a total technophobe.

Tony Edwards
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Tony Edwards » 09 Nov 2010, 00:22

Whilst the Championship fee is a considerable element of cost for any competitor it is important to consider the event costs in context. From the competitor perspective he/she will be looking for value for money and to be reasonably certain what the entry fee will include for the week.

For all entrants but especially foreign entrants there are considerable travel costs including flights, ferrys, taxis or car hire. Then there are accommodation costs, not to mention the cost of a competative IOM and reliable equipment, spares etc. When looked at in the round this is an expensive exercise for home and overseas competitors alike and the entry fee is not the only "make or break" cost. Competing at this level is costly in any sport.

Competitors will take their own decisions based on their individual circumstances, what they are prepared to sacrifice and can afford often influenced by family circumstances. The UK is pitching next year's WC event fundamentally to be a first class sailing competition at a sensible cost and in this regard we have the fortune to centre the competion around the excellent infrastructure and experience of the West Kirby Sailing Club.

Of course it is important to keep the entrance fee to a reasonable sum but, in my view, it is the total package on which competitors will base their decision to attend. 8)
TonyE GBR75

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 09 Nov 2010, 02:13

Sure thing Neil.

http://www.iomclass.org/

Look for the Events Sub Committee link on the right hand side and there you are.

I should add that this doesn't mean that major events are simple to organize because that isn't the case but they are not, as I am pretty sure I can see you understand, a simple extension of even complex National level events. BY that I mean that we are excited to have up to 40 boats come to our Nationals but that level of organization and operation wouldn't be able to handle a World class event, even if we took a minimalistic approach to it. It is simply a complex project and there isn't too much that you can do to that.

In the midst of what I understand the complexity and requirements to be, I'll suggest that the 7 or 800 GBP that are the ICA fees are not the make or break point of it.

From what I read the intent of your question is aimed at how to improve the possibilities of finding hosts in the future and keeping the cost to the competitors under control. I would suggest that regardless of entry fees or entry levels, the real costs, as Tony pointed out, are thousands of dollars just to get there and stay there, let alone the actual; sailing part.

If there are sections of all of this documentation that are driving costs then those are the ones to address as far as I can see. If the host organization feels like they want to have video feed, give out goody bags, host high end dinners, etc., I don't think you find that as a requirement in these documents. Some level of some of those things are suggested but I can't see where they are mandatory.

Have a good time reading them. There are some interesting suggestion buried in them. The manual is a pretty comprehensive set of guidelines; someone(s) spent a lot of time pulling from experience to build that to the level it is at.
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Neil Armstrong
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 09 Nov 2010, 23:35

Hi Barry,

thanks for the link, much appreciated. I will read the information over the next few days and report.

I would also like everybody that is following this thread to also read the information and give there views, especially any skippers that are planning to enter one of the 'big' championships in the future before it is too late and nobody wants to host and we lose the opportunity.

The views of our current exec would also be much appreciated.


Remember the main aim of this thread is to encourage new hosts and secure the future of our flagship races.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 11 Nov 2010, 23:01

Managed to get time to read the documents, a few interesting things in them but nothing too surprising.

IOM CLASS CHAMPIONSHIP RULES

RULE 6.8
within 3 months of the completion of the championship the organising authority shall forward a report to the ESC,comprising at the least a statement of income and expenditure and an evaluation of the championship.


EVENT MANAGEMENT MANUAL

FINANCE.
when sufficient time has elapsed for all the accounts to be in, but not so much that memories have dimmed and committee members begin to apply themselves to other matters, final accounts should be passed for payment and the books balanced. Hopefully, it will be necessary to decide what will happen to the credit balance but if the worst happens, then it may be a matter of deciding how to meet the shortfall.

Could our Chairman, Alfonso, explain what has happened in the past. Before you go on a journey you have never made before, you would check the map to get directions, if you have no map you have more of a chance of taking a wrong turn. We can avoid this.

I feel very strongly that IOMICA will struggle to find future hosts due to current economic situations and IOMICA is not helping itself in this matter.

If you have a view, post it and lets help future hosts.

Alfonso
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Alfonso » 14 Nov 2010, 23:34

Hi Neil,

Sorry but I have a rule. I only answer the posts of people with real names, I don't know why you hyde your identity.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Richard Batchelor » 15 Nov 2010, 02:44

Neil Armstrong wrote:Managed to get time to read the documents, a few interesting things in them but nothing too surprising.

IOM CLASS CHAMPIONSHIP RULES

RULE 6.8
within 3 months of the completion of the championship the organising authority shall forward a report to the ESC,comprising at the least a statement of income and expenditure and an evaluation of the championship.


EVENT MANAGEMENT MANUAL

FINANCE.
when sufficient time has elapsed for all the accounts to be in, but not so much that memories have dimmed and committee members begin to apply themselves to other matters, final accounts should be passed for payment and the books balanced. Hopefully, it will be necessary to decide what will happen to the credit balance but if the worst happens, then it may be a matter of deciding how to meet the shortfall.

Could our Chairman, Alfonso, explain what has happened in the past. Before you go on a journey you have never made before, you would check the map to get directions, if you have no map you have more of a chance of taking a wrong turn. We can avoid this.

I feel very strongly that IOMICA will struggle to find future hosts due to current economic situations and IOMICA is not helping itself in this matter.

If you have a view, post it and lets help future hosts.
Hope this helps Alfonso..these are questions that should be answered promptly.I appreciate the name stance,but rather than re type them I have just quoted them under my name.(sorry edited this as I mis-spelt your name)

Neil Armstrong
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 15 Nov 2010, 10:41

Hi Alfonso,

i have updated my profile to include my sail number and location, not sure why this is required, does it matter if my name is Neil or Lance or even Stretch, as long as the question is valid it should be answered.

If people on the forum did want to be ananomys i dont really see the problem as long as they behave themselves and asked relevant questions. I have noticed that almost ALL the commercial suppliers and builders do not enter the forum even though they are also the most experienced sailors in the World, this is because they cannot afford to make an enemy from the very people they supply to and make a living from. Ask yourself this, ' where is Bantock,Roberts,Clifton,Smith,Zvonko,Elliot,Joop,Brierley,Chisham,Gibson,Creed,Binks,Guyatt,Banforth and many other suppliers'
These are the hub of the IOM class and include ALL the World Champions in IOM except for Trevor Binks (only world champion who is not professional in IOM). and also includes Roberts that has never missed a World or European Championship since the start but they do not enter into the forum and share there great wisdom with us. Simple, because they cannot afford to lose a potential customer.

The question does not change though.

This is not an attack on you, but as Chairman of IOMICA aswell as a veteran of many World and European Championships and also winner of an A fleet race at the most recent Europeans (i watched on live stream) your oppinions are very much appreciated, either as 'chairman' or 'racer'.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Lester » 15 Nov 2010, 16:58

While I'm sure Neil and Richard have the best interests of the IOM Class at heart (who doesn't?), I don't know that the lack of compliance of event organisers with IOMICA policy is to be laid at Alfonso's door. I'd first ask the event organisers themselves (they know who they are!) to tell us when they sent their reports to IOMICA.
Lester Gilbert
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Richard Batchelor » 15 Nov 2010, 22:51

Very good point Lester,no personal attacks are intended,I keep forgetting how tender and sensitive we all are :D :D :D .

Neil Armstrong
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 16 Nov 2010, 13:48

Hi Lester,

thanks for joining in the thread, your input is always welcome as an ex chair and knowledgeable chap in IOM and not just trim tabs on 'A' boats

I will then ask, although i feel we know the answer already, where did the hosts send the reports.

Just to jog memories..

2001 CRO WC £85
2002 GBR EC £80
2003 CAN WC £152
2004 ESP EC £141
2005 AUS WC £210
2006
2007 FRA WC £269
2008 CRO EC £271
2009 BAR WC £343 (figures are thanks to Zoran on a previous post)

If nothing else comes from my persistance but a report from future WC and EC so as people thinking of hosting one of these races have some kind of indication of the facts and figures involved it will be an achievement especially taking into account the lack of response, maybe they have a blanket silence?

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Lester » 16 Nov 2010, 22:34

Neil Armstrong wrote: 2001 CRO WC £85
2002 GBR EC £80
2003 CAN WC £152
These events should have reported to RSD. To the best of my knowledge, they did not.
2004 ESP EC £141
2005 AUS WC £210
2006
2007 FRA WC £269
2008 CRO EC £271
2009 BAR WC £343
These events should have reported to IOMICA. To the best of my knowledge, they did not. The 2004 & 2005 events took place on my watch, and for various reasons the organisers simply failed to do what they knew they should have done, despite reminders. The only sanction IOMICA has for organisers who fail to comply with IOMICA policy is not to approve their bids for future events, but this is a rather weak sanction! If implemented, IOMICA would shortly run out of organisers completely... It would be very interesting to hear if anyone has practical suggestions for encouraging compliance.
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Richard Batchelor » 17 Nov 2010, 02:14

Perhaps a refundable deposit,maybe set as a percentage of maximum expected entries,set .Once all reportage criteria is met the deposit is refunded to the event holders.
Bit draconian perhaps but money talks :shock:

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Alfonso » 17 Nov 2010, 22:52

May be the solution is to ask for the budget previous the award of the championship. This budget was asked to the countries that were competing for the World Championship of 2009, but I am almost sure that we did not ask for this budget for Euro 2010 and Worlds 2011.

I understand that the best situation is to have real accounts rather than just the budget, but better than nothing.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 18 Nov 2010, 21:55

There could be as many as 3 reports nearly ready for release in some form or another.

2009 Worlds---Sen Peter Gilkes reported 'we will shortly have a complete report compiled' posted 10 July 2009, must be ready by now but may need a reminder.

2010 Euros----France will have their report ready any time now

2011 Worlds---???

These reports are a great source of information for any future hosts, be it USA, Portugal, Spain, Germany or whoever and should be freely available to assist and encourage.

It is extremely difficult to uphold any rules on reports, as Lester says, not approving future bids will not work and as Richard says, a refundable deposit is a draconian measure.

Maybe if IOMICA got rid of the £10 per boat fee for hosts that adhered to the rules and submitted reports within a realistic timescale, say 28 days.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Bruce Andersen » 19 Nov 2010, 02:29

Having tried and failed to get final budget numbers from FRA and BAR during my tenure as VCE, I think this is a brilliant idea! Refund all or part of the IOMICA fee if the proper "after action" reports (including the final budget and expense accounts) are filed in a timely manner. Might actually work!
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

Neil Armstrong
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 22 Nov 2010, 23:12

What do the exec think of this idea?

As Lester and Bruce have had no luck getting the reports and it is impossible to put any punishments in place maybe a 'carrot' will work?

'Carrot' = incentive ----------

The current system DOES NOT WORK and needs tweeking if future hosts are to be found. Lets be pro-active and not re-active with this issue.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Neil Armstrong » 24 Nov 2010, 19:25

Surely one of the exec committee have an opinion on this important issue?

On 27th October there was a post to say the IOMICA financial statement will be ready soon, how far away are from seeing this?

Is the 2010 Europeans report ready yet?

How are the discussions with West Kirby going on the subject of the IOMICA £10 per boat levy? I am sure they will need to know ASAP to allow them to set a entrance fee.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Olivier Cohen » 24 Nov 2010, 22:11

It seems you have plenty of time to ask things ! Good ! Next year you will be able to enter Exec to do all those things you ask for.

You will see documents as soon as they are ready and validated.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by RoyL » 25 Nov 2010, 05:25

Not sure why the attitude here. These are well intentioned questions on an important issue. They really do deserve an answer.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Olivier Cohen » 25 Nov 2010, 09:40

RoyL wrote:Not sure why the attitude here. These are well intentioned questions on an important issue. They really do deserve an answer.
Roy, they will get an answer, but I don't like to be chased for a "volunteer" job...

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Neil Armstrong » 25 Nov 2010, 14:08

Sorry if you feel 'chased' but i have only reminded once in 4 weeks, hardly classed as 'chasing' in my oppinion. I respect anybody that gives there time for free but you must understand the Execs only contact with the outside world is through this forum. You must expect questions from time to time surely, even difficult ones.

You could at very least give the outside world some updates on these questions even if the full answer is not yet complete.

The very simplest one is 'where do i find a copy of the IOMICA yearly financial statement' 08-09 will do if 09-10 is not complete yet. How simple can that be to answer, you can either post a link to them, email them to me or tell me they do not exist. Transparency?

As i am now retired and have a little more spare time and am given any advance notice of any upcoming elections for Exec positions i would love to have a go but am no where near experianced enough in the world of IOM yet.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Neil Armstrong » 25 Nov 2010, 19:01

Yahoo. I have found the yearly statement, it is in the AGM document Barry has just posted, thanks Barry.

I am presuming the amounts are in Australian Dollars, please let us know.

Very healthy looking balance sheet, nearly 11,000EURO in the black. (£9000.00/15000.00AUS)

Good time to to implement the plan of giving the £10 per boat IOMICA levy back to the host country if they adhere to the rules and give reports.

Another option would be for IOMICA to part fund the live streaming.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 25 Nov 2010, 23:02

You should find the financials for each year as some part of teh AGM minutes for which ever year.

Admittedly that is a healthy sum. The WC members have started talking a bit about how we might consume some or all of that to further teh class everywhere. There is much more IOM saiuling than just occurs at the "big" events. I know you know that but I had to say it.

I'm not sure it is healthy to start refunding the event sanction fees. That is, at least for the moment, the only source of income the organization has. If we instill the thought that we will do away with that source of income then soon who ever is teh Exec of the day is when we run out of money will be coming to dip into your pocket to have some operating funds.

There is nothing wrong with having a discussion on teh Forum about how we might do something to reduce the cost of operating these bigger events. This is a good place to do it. But also include your NCA and its representative in your conversations. I would say that something as important as this (and it is important) will have to end up with an NCA(s) sponsoring resolutions (motions) to make a change. I wouldn't say it is the case for this but, for some things, it is possible that an individual's opinion is not the one shared by the rest of their country.
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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Peter Allen » 27 Nov 2010, 15:23

Having read through this discussion,i called Penny who was the main person behind the organization of the event here in 2009.She tells me that the BSA books are with the auditor at the moment,when she gets them back she should be able to extract the IOM budget and we'll see if we can get it out there for you.As all of you would probably know it takes alot of work and comitment to organize one of these things where we the sailors owe our gratitude ,i recall Penny's hair standing straight up at the beginning and the smile at the sucessful ending.Weather you are French Aussie or Bajan it's human nature to go phew at the ending of it and say thank god it's over,and can see where this gets swept under the rug.However from our end of it the IOM worlds was the stepping stone to the Fireball worlds and now the 505 worlds are in the works,so it was'nt long before Pennys hair was straight up again.It's not appropriate to apply pressure in this case,but i shall remind her in a few weeks and shall see where i'ts at.Having run the smaller Mount Gay regattas here over the past i know that feeling only too well.Regards Peter

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Alfonso » 27 Nov 2010, 20:17

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your mediation. All these information will be very helpful for future events.

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Neil Armstrong » 29 Nov 2010, 20:11

If nothing else this thread has proven the saying.

'The squeaky wheel gets the oil'

We now have accounts for IOMICA and accounts for Championships.

Just a few more little answers on the subject of the £10 levy and thats it. IOMICA do not need that amount of money in the bank, do something constructive like pay for the live streaming with some of it or some other marketing ideas.

Exec is doing a good job as they are all volunteers as Olivier reminds us, keep it up.

Neil Armstrong is retiring from posting on the forum from today but will continue to look out for the answers.

See you all in West Kirby. X

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Olivier Cohen » 29 Nov 2010, 20:32

X ? Living near West Kirby ? Birkenhead maybe ?

So you will soon know how much is IOMICA levy for 2011 Worlds

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Re: 2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 30 Nov 2010, 21:54

Neil,

I don't think you need to retire from posting. You don't always get an answer (sometimes ones that you don't like or agree with even) but the whole premise of the forum is that you get to ask.

Yes, the ICA has a rather substantial bank account. There are some number of emails flowing around between all of the WC members about what would be a good use of some of the funds to further the class. That means to further the class at all levels of participation, not just the big events.

I would vote completely against funding the video feeds, although I have watched as much of the last couple of events as time and my sleepy brain would allow. It is a very nice promotion tool in some respects but it does not make a better sailing event for the participants. It is terrific for all the rest of us.

If the video feed is a 2,000 Euro expense every year it would not take very long before the ICA was broke, just a few years. So how the organization is funded, longer term, is one subject. The idea of reducing the sanction fee has some merit if we find other funding sources as well. But I would say that it has to be paid first and then a refund of some amount is returned if, within some reasonable time period, the clean up documentation at the end of the event is delivered.

If we can consume some part of the excess funding to make sure that every NCA, and any of their organizing clubs, have standardized sail measuring template/tools, and those kinds of things we will incur some cost to make that happen but that does nothing but drive class standards up at all level of competition. That has to be good.

If our new VC Measurement can arrive at a dry "float" apparatus, then there can be plans for and/or gauges to be used to conduct that part of the measuring process. And again, make sure that those are available or distributed to every possible source that would want them.

Certainly we have to do something other than just bank the fees received every year but I would say that stopping the flow into the organization is not a healthy approach. Figuring out what we could do with that kind of funding, annually or one time, to improve the class for everyone is, in my opinion a valuable thing to do.

But don't quit posting.
Barry Fox
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