Simple Heat Racing System

Discuss class championship regulations, sailing instructions, umpiring, observing, scoring software, fleet racing systems, forthcoming international events, etc

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Hiljoball
Posts: 271
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Hiljoball » 19 Oct 2015, 17:06

Thanks Harry - suddenly SHRS is not so simple. Lots of decisions to be made about heat size, when to split, how to handle discards . . .

Basically SHRS is a heat scheduling system without a scoring system. HMS is a scoring system that supports a heat board.

Running a heat board is easy. Setting up a scoring system is much harder.

And Harry, your final comment says

"To avoid lots of discussions I would like to propose to allow both systems for major events. Then it is up to the event organization to decide which system they want to use.
The event organization is in the end responsible and accountable for the event and financial budget!"


That would be fine, but that is NOT what the motion says. The motion says throw out HMS and use ONLY SHRS.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Harry Drenth
Posts: 4
Joined: 12 Oct 2015, 18:51

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Harry Drenth » 20 Oct 2015, 11:03

Dear John,

Please don't mix up flexibility with complexity.
SHRS is simple since it follows the rulebook and scoring is covered by the low point system described in RRS Appendix A.

Thousands of events over the world are using this race system. So why would RC sailors can't use it? I assume that a part of our rc community is or was also racing in big boat events and is familiar with this type of race system.

Heat size is the most simple part of this system: For the qualifying series boats will be assigned to fleets of, as near as possible, equal size and ability (Laser Worlds 4.7 description)

Discards can be as simple as currently implemented. However the race committee has the freedom to alter the discard rules. And in some events they do.

Same with deciding were the split from qualitying round to final round is done.

Again I would be in favour to allow both HMS and SHRS to be used on world- and continental championships.
At least it opens the possibility to use it for one of those events.

Harry

Hiljoball
Posts: 271
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Hiljoball » 20 Oct 2015, 21:19

Harry Drenth wrote:
Again I would be in favour to allow both HMS and SHRS to be used on world- and continental championships.
At least it opens the possibility to use it for one of those events.

Harry
That would be fine, but that is NOT what the motion says. The motion says throw out HMS and use ONLY SHRS.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Harry Drenth
Posts: 4
Joined: 12 Oct 2015, 18:51

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Harry Drenth » 22 Oct 2015, 15:42

Hi John,

So .. my proposal is to alter the motion to allow both HMS and SHRS and let the organization committe decide which one to use.

If the motion is proposing this would you vote for it?

Regards,

Harry

Hiljoball
Posts: 271
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Hiljoball » 22 Oct 2015, 16:04

Hi Harry,

Unfortunately with the IOMICA electronic AGM process, there is no mechanism for an amendment to a motion.

There is no need for this motion in the first place. All Croatia has to do is submit the suggestion to the IRSA Rules Committee for acceptance as an approved heat management/scoring system. Once IRSA has approved SHRS for use at World or Continental Championships, then the IOMICA and the event host would have a choice between HMS and SHRS as two approved systems to select from and to include in their NOR and SI.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Zoran
CRO NCA Officer
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Location: CRO 69
Contact:

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Zoran » 22 Oct 2015, 18:16

Hi John,

Just for clarification. Any racing scoring system used on RC events races under RRS shall comply with the RRS and there is no need for IRSA approval. This was clearly said to us by IRSA chairman in answer to my mail back in April saying:

„Because IOMICA is an independent ICA, it is free to decide and use any racing system it wishes for any events that it approves or organises, no problem there, provided only that the system is consistent with the (other) rules that are relevant.”

SHRS is in use in Croatia and we invite any other NCA to use it as it is certainly copyright free.

Submissions to the IOMICA AGM can be given only to change or amend current rules and regulations. Current rules dealing with racing system is only Class Championship Rules that are prescribing racing system for World and Continental championships through the Standard NoR and SI. Therefore we could only make a motion to have SHRS applied on the World and Continental championships.
Zoran Grubisa
CRO 69

Hiljoball
Posts: 271
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Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Hiljoball » 24 Oct 2015, 16:47

Regardless of Lester's comments, When I read the documentation chain (attached - extracted from IRSA and IOMICA web sites), I see a different picture. For example the IOMICA Class Championship regulations (that your motion seeks to amend) contains the phrase "Adapted with permission from the IRSA Standard CCRs". So IRSA approval is required for changes.

The IOMICA/IRSA agreement clearly states that IOMICA is bound by the documents and regulations of the IRSA. If we can pick and choose which documents and regulations to ignore, then why do we bother sending Class Rule changes to IRSA for approval. Why do we ask them for interpretations?

The IOMICA Class Championship Regulations say that they are "Adapted with permission from the IRSA Standard CCRs".

The IRSA model NOR and SI both specify the use of an IRSA approved heat management system.

The IOMICA NOR and SI are modeled on the IRSA models and comply with them, substituting an approved system (HMS) into the text.

I don't have a problem with having an additional Heat Management system available for selection by the IOMICA and the Host club holding a WC or CC. I do have a problem with this motion that (if approved) mandates the use of SHRS only.

What I am saying is that if you want to promote a new heat management system with a view to having it accepted for use at WC or CC events, this is not the way to do it.

The IRSA has a committee - The Rules Committee - that has a specific responsibility to review and approve new heat management systems. That is where your proposal should go.

John
Attachments
Documentation Chain for Heat Management and Scoring.pdf
(64.26 KiB) Downloaded 135 times
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

RoyL
Posts: 705
Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 21:03

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by RoyL » 26 Oct 2015, 23:17

Ok, so under this proposed system, I can travel four or five thousand miles; sail for maybe half the time under a matrix heat system that has long been abandoned; and then get to sail for the rest of the time in a fixed fleet where my best result could be a 30th place? No thank you. If the goal is to dramatically lower attendance at World or Continental Championships, this is a great idea. Otherwise, why would anyone but the elite sailors who are usually always in A fleet anyway want to attend this kind of event?

Robert Matulja
Posts: 11
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Sail number: CRO 33
Club: JK Opatija, Croatia
Design: Pikanto

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Robert Matulja » 27 Oct 2015, 19:53

Hi Roy,

Let me ask simple question. If you sail championship under HMS and after half of event you are 35th do you really think you will win the championship by the end of event or at least be in top ten?
The goal is to make competition more interesting, because of fight for EVERY point and EVERY place.
The whole world goes on and we remain.

RoyL
Posts: 705
Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 21:03

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by RoyL » 27 Oct 2015, 21:56

My answer, and I think it is true of every participant in a major IOM race, is that in each and every heat under HMS I have a chance to do well and find myself in "A" fleet sailing against the best in the world. Maybe it will only happen one time, might not happen at all, but I still have that chance. Not true under your proposed system. I'm locked in to a fleet with only a chance to move up a few places or so. For everyone but the top of the fleet, its not much of an incentive to keep on participating or even coming in the first place.

So, as to your question, will I win the championship if I'm in 35th place halfway through under HMS? No. But will I have a chance to face Brad Gibson, Peter Stollery, Rob Walsh, etc? Yes, and I sure would like the opportunity to try. "Simple Heat Racing System" really seems geared to the guys at the top of the fleet, and if that is the goal, just limit the number of places in major races and even have required qualifying races to be able to enter like the Olympics.

Robert Matulja
Posts: 11
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 23:28
Sail number: CRO 33
Club: JK Opatija, Croatia
Design: Pikanto

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Robert Matulja » 28 Oct 2015, 20:02

Will you sail more against Brad Gibson, Peter Stollery, Rob Walsh ... in SHRS or HMS? Very probably in SHRS where in preliminary round where heat composition is changed after each race based on results on previous race and in each preliminary race you are sailing against one winner, one 2nd, one 3rd etc.. of previous heat.
So, more of half championship You WILL SAIL with that guys not YUST HAVE CHANCE to sail against them. I am sure that is much more than in HMS. :wink: If You prove in qualifications that You belong to them , You WILL SAIL against them all week, not YUST HAVE CHANCE to sail with them. 8)
If You already think that You do not belong in that group, go sail , do not spend time on forum(700 posts). :)

RoyL
Posts: 705
Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 21:03

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by RoyL » 29 Oct 2015, 05:50

How soon they forgot. Robert, I have 700 posts here for two reasons--One, I've been doing this since before Croatia even sailed in international IOM competition and two, I was the former VC Technical for IOMICA in the days when this forum was a very active place and a lot of questions had to be answered and issues responded to. I haven't posted here in quite some time. Only doing so now because I don't think the SHRS system should become the new world standard and replace HMS.

The wonderful thing about HMS is that you usually sail against people of equal skill level, but in every race you can EARN the opportunity to sail with the best in the world. SHRS doesn't do that.

A few questions for you--how many countries other than Croatia have used SHRS? How many national or international events have been sailed under SHRS? What has been the maximum number of days and boats sailed in any event under SHRS? Based on the history (or lack thereof) of SHRS why do you think it is ready now to supersede HMS?

Further, have you done any research on the history of the old "odd/even" system that you propose to govern half of an SHRS event and found out why it was rejected in favor of HMS in the past? Have you polled prior participants (and not just those from your country or at the high end of the fleet) in recent World and Continental Championships to see what effect your new system would have on participation? Have you done any research on how sailing in mixed skilled fleets affects the results of a regatta? Unless you can fully answer all of these questions, SHRS isn't ready to be the new world standard.

I think more work needs to be done before IOMICA throws out the established HMS system.

Robert Matulja
Posts: 11
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 23:28
Sail number: CRO 33
Club: JK Opatija, Croatia
Design: Pikanto

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Robert Matulja » 29 Oct 2015, 13:05

Was HMS tested outside any country except UK before it was accepted in IOMICA?

PS
For your info, Croatian sailors have been participating in every single IOM World and European Championship held so far.

RoyL
Posts: 705
Joined: 15 Dec 2003, 21:03

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by RoyL » 29 Oct 2015, 14:39

Robert--To answer your question---yes, HMS was used in America, Australia and New Zealand as well as the UK and in other classes (such as the Marblehead) before being adopted by IOMICA. Now do you want to answer any of the questions I asked?

And p.s. Robert, for your information there was IOM and other forms of r/c sailing before IOMICA. There were even World Championships that I'm pretty sure Croatia did not participate in, remember there used to be that little thing called the Soviet Union and the Cold War?

Zoran
CRO NCA Officer
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Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Zoran » 30 Oct 2015, 08:02

Roy,

IOM World Championships were held:
1994 - St. Cyr (FRA)
1997 - Wellington (NZL)
1999 - Ramla Bay (MLT)
2001 - Omisalj (CRO)
2003 - Vancouver (CAN)
2005 - Mooloalooba (AUS)
2007 - Marseille (FRA)
2009 - Brdigetown (BAR)
2011 - West Kriby (GBR)
2013 - Sdot Yam (ISR)
2015 - Foster City (USA)

IOM European Championships were held:
1996 - Fleetwood (GBR)
1998 - Leixoes (POR)
2000 - St. Cyr (FRA)
2002 - Fleetwood (GBR)
2004 - Arcos (ESP)
2008 - Dubrovnik (CRO)
2010 - Pierlatte (FRA)
2012 - Cres (CRO)
2014 - Campione (ITA)

As Robert said Croatia had representatives on each of these championships. I am not listing here Marblehead events on which Croatian sailors also participated.

IOMICA was founded after the first championships has been held and first AGM was held - guess where - in Omisalj Croatia during the IOM Worlds 2001.


PS You may consider taking some history lessons to find out that Croatia was never connected with Soviet Union!
Zoran Grubisa
CRO 69

Dick Carver
Posts: 55
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Location: USA 22

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Dick Carver » 30 Oct 2015, 23:09

Gentlemen, perhaps a compromise is possible.

IOM ICA Regulation 4.11. says:
4.11. At any World Council meeting only resolutions of which notice has been given in
accordance with these Regulations shall be proposed and no amendments thereto shall
be permitted, unless the proposers of the resolution accept the amendment.

Link to IOM ICA Regs. :
http://www.iomclass.org/doc-files/Admin ... 010-11.pdf

With the permission of the Croatian NCA, the resolution could be amended to allow either HMS or SHRS to be used at World and Continental Championships at the discretion of the Event Organizing Committee.
Dick Carver

Federico Breuer
Posts: 2
Joined: 12 May 2009, 19:16

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Federico Breuer » 11 Nov 2015, 23:26

Hi all, we are planing to use SHRS, in the next South American 1M ULY championship 28-29 and 30 November, with skippers form Brazil, Chile, Cuba and Argentina, we think in less skippers 36 in this case, with HMS we have to doit in 3 heats in SHRS we can use only 2 Heats, gaining a lot of races in only 3 day Regata, is there any excel or software for running SHRS out there?
The 1M ULY class is a One Desing IOM, all are the same
here is the web
http://rpollono.wix.com/suda-2015-1-m-uly

Cheers

Federico Breuer Moreno
IRSA Vice Chairman
Arg - 348

Zoran
CRO NCA Officer
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Location: CRO 69
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Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Zoran » 12 Nov 2015, 00:41

Hi Federico,

You may use sailwave at www.sailwave.com or Harry's software. Harry will get in contact with you

Regards
Zoran Grubisa
CRO 69

CHATIN Achille
Posts: 21
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Sail number: FRA 16
Club: CV Cazaux Lac
Design: V8
Location: Bordeaux FRA

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by CHATIN Achille » 16 Nov 2015, 11:55

Hi Federico!

I am very keen on getting feedback from the regatta you are organising under SHRS!

Wish a good luck with your event.

Un abrazo!
Achille
FRENCH NCA Officer

Federico Breuer
Posts: 2
Joined: 12 May 2009, 19:16

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Federico Breuer » 08 Dec 2015, 07:13

Achille

We finished the South American One Meter ULY, 31 skippers 5 countries we use SHRS
Because the poor wind conditions in 3 days of racing from 10:00 am up to 20:00 hs we only could reach 9 races "9 A fleet", " 9 B fleet", the system is good, but we only make 5 classification races, and in low winds, is not fair to all competitors, and you don´t race against all competitors, the main problem was the software, we have to use 2 separated programs, for the classification part we used TWEET, but lacks the ability to make any changees in the fleets composition if there was a RDG because a competitor start in the wrong fleet or other kind of modification, its start to say error everywhere, the only solution is to reset, and start again. We don´t see any advantages in the protest in the classification part, you has to stop the event the same as in HMS, because you cant define the next fleet, racing in 2 fleets only.
The process of changing the skippers form A fleet to B and B to A is too slow, in HMS you only move top 4 in the board and its easy to know if you are in this 4 skippers, in SHRS you move the half, and you don´t know if you was even or odd, and have to wait to see your name in the board to know in witch fleet you race next, and to name observers its the same up to the board is complete you cant call observers.
We think the Software has to be made in specific form so you can connect the computer to a 40" tv, and there you have a fast board. (plus the cost)
We race in 2 fleets, and we saw that if you have two top skippers and the win all the races, they never race against each other in the classification part, we think this is a mistake. We change it to: "A" fleet "A1-B1-A3-B3-A5-B5 etc" -- "B" fleet "A2-B2-A4-B4-A6-B6 etc"
In the finals, we use SAILWAVE, but it has to be filled with all the races at the end of each day, making double work for the OR and computer guy part, you have to be sure no result was wrong in 2 different softwares, the double work, double chance of making a mistake.
We don´t see clear advantage of SHRS over HMS with a software developed for SHRS could be easier to reach a good finish to any regata, but using 2 softwares it was a pain in the..., we will never use SHRS again if there is no specific soft.

Any questions, ask.

Un abrazo

Federico
Arg - 348

Gordon Davies
Posts: 14
Joined: 20 May 2015, 12:35

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Gordon Davies » 08 Dec 2015, 11:49

Federico,

Thank you for your report. It was most interesting.

One point - in order to rearrange the fleet after a race is completed would it not be easier to use finishing place in the heat (that is before any penalty or protest). This avoids having t wait for the result of any protest or redress hearing, which you have to do if fleets are based on race score.


There will always be some delays when sailing with only 2 heats, even n HMS. Under HMS, if there is a protest in Heat A then the next Race Heat B cannot start until the protest is decided. When there are 4 or 5 heats the Jury has more time to deal with the protest.

Gordon

Garry Box
Posts: 2
Joined: 09 Dec 2015, 00:05

Re: Simple Heat Racing System

Post by Garry Box » 12 Dec 2015, 01:43

maybe a dumb idea but why not just use HMS but after so many rounds stop promotions/demotions at between certain fleets.

eg 4 fleets after say 6 races stop promotions/demotions between b and c.

not perfect but in case of a protest could at least proceed with a race not effected by protest ?

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