IOMICA, RSD, and the future of radio sailing

Discuss how IOMICA and IOM NCAs operate

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Lester
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IOMICA, RSD, and the future of radio sailing

Post by Lester » 06 Apr 2009, 21:18

.
As some of you may know, I'm helping the RSD Permanent Committee initiate discussion on the future of the RSD. For many of us, this is an important topic, not just in terms of the impact upon the IOM class, but also upon radio sailing on the planet in general.

The RSD Web site now has the discussion document, and the draft IRSCA constitution, available for download:

http://www.radiosailing.org/

I've tried to have a quick browse of the various national discussion and Web sites (that's a quick browse; I might easily have missed something, particularly for national sites not written in english!) to see how the debate is going, with the following results (if it is blank, I could not easily find any site):

ARG
AUS Active discussion
AUT
BEL
BRA
CAN Nothing
CRO Nothing
DEN Nothing
ESP
FIN Nothing
FRA
GBR A mention
GER
GRE
IRL
ITA Nothing
JPN
MLT Nothing
NED Nothing
NOR Nothing
NZL Nothing
POL
POR Nothing
RSA Nothing
SAM
SLO
SUI
SWE Nothing
USA A mention

So, only AUS seems to be currently debating the issue at national, Division Member level.

My post here is to ask those of you who have a connection with your national authority for radio sailing (Division Member, Member National Authority, or whatever) to please do what you can to encourage debate in your country.

To help, I list here the last known national contact e-mails of the DMs (this is an update of the list of Division Members held on the RSD Web site, which itself will be updated in due course):

ARG Federico Breuer [caymcaym at hotmail dot com]
AUS Ken Dobbie [kendobbie at netspace dot net dot au]
AUT Helmut Tuerk [tuerk dot helmut at a1 dot net]
BEL SABLON Willy [Willy dot SABLON at KONE dot com]
BRA Antonio Augusto [aaslima1511 at uol dot com dot br]
CAN Gary L dot Bugden [gbugden at accesscable dot net]
CRO Zoran Grubisa [zoran at scor dot hr]
DEN Lasse Rand [rand1 at profibermail dot dk]
ESP Alfonso Moreno [secretario at velarc dot es]
FIN Eero Laurila [e dot laurila at kolumbus dot fi]
FRA AULNETTE Corinne [corinne dot aulnette at ffv dot fr]
GBR Mark Dennis [markc dot dennis at ntlworld dot com]
GER Dieter Lagemann [rc-segeln at d-lagemann dot de]
GRE Mark Albanis [markosa at hol dot gr]
IRL Ed Alcock [Ed at sailing dot ie]
ITA Federico Ciardi [prciardi at pulsante dot it]
JPN YOSHIHIRO MIZUTANI [hav52191 at tree dot odn dot ne dot jp]
MLT Vinnie Zammit [vinnie dot zammit at gmail dot com]
NED Chris Vaes [chris dot vaes at zonnet dot nl]
NOR Torvald Klem [torvald dot klem at spor dot no]
NZL Roy Granich [roy at anzamsystems dot com]
POL Andrzej Mielicki [andrzejm at hot dot pl]
POR Paulo Gomes [info at apmv dot net]
RSA Des Fairbank [Des dot Fairbank at carpet dot co dot za]
SAM
SLO Jure Zule [jure dot zule at gmail dot com]
SUI Benjamin Wittlin [benjamin at wittlin dot net]
SWE Jan Dejmo [jan at dejmo dot com]
USA Pete Maxson [pmaxson at rochester dot rr dot com]

These good folks will vote on the future of the RSD at the Extraordinary General Assembly on or before 1 July 2009. I expect they would appreciate your help in getting the view of your national owners and sailors across.
Last edited by Lester on 05 May 2009, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.
Lester Gilbert
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Hiljoball
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Post by Hiljoball » 26 Apr 2009, 23:10

Hi Lester,

I was just reading your reply on the Australian forum and it prompted the following thought.

The designation of international class or recognised class etc. is contained in the ISAF regulations.

The ISAF-RSD had its own definitions for class qualification.

If the RSD is dissolved or if it evolves into the IRSCA, the RSD definitions go away and there is no definition of classes for the member classes. So the M, 10R and RA would lose International designation. There is also a possible period when the IOM class looses its International designation until the IOMICA is accepted by the ISAF as a class.

If/when the IRSCA is accepted by the ISAF, then the question of class designation would have to be resolved at that time, based on their definitions.

Of course, the IRSCA could develop and use its own definitions pending acceptance by the ISAF.

Not sure what this means. Just a thought.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Lester
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Post by Lester » 26 Apr 2009, 23:34

Hiljoball wrote:If the RSD is dissolved or if it evolves into the IRSCA, the RSD definitions go away and there is no definition of classes for the member classes. So the M, 10R and A would lose International designation. There is also a period when the IOM class loses its International designation
Hi John

Exactly. During the transition, however, we would hope that ISAF would allow the old RSD classes to be accorded 'international priviledges' (ie continue to be able to hold international championships) until things clarified.
If/when the IRSCA is accepted by the ISAF, then the question of class designation would have to be resolved at that time, based on their definitions.
It is not a question of whether or when IRSCA (or IOMICA) is accepted by ISAF. It is a question of whether or when the classes concerned are accepted by ISAF as ISAF classes. This distinction is not particularly significant with regard to the IOM, but is essential for the M, 10R, and A classes. They must each individually seek ISAF status. The role of IRSCA is to represent their interests (separately) to ISAF as they do so.
Of course, the IRSCA could develop and use its own definitions pending acceptance by the ISAF.
Not at all. IRSCA would be a multi-class association, not an international authority (smile), and it cannot make such definitions. There could be no such thing as the M or 10R or A being an IRSCA class. Represented by IRSCA, certainly; an IRSCA class, not at all.
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 30 Apr 2009, 07:05

For those who have said that the issue of the status of RSD is "making a mountain out of a molehill", there is a very interesting position paper on this subject from the Executive of Australia's radio controlled sailing association posted on their website.

It appears to be a pretty devastating document that goes far beyond any of the assertions made here.

But don't take my word, read it and judge for yourselves. Might even be worth it if someone posted a copy here.

David Turton
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Copy of Australia's position as posted on their forum

Post by David Turton » 30 Apr 2009, 07:18

The following is a policy statement issued by the Executive of the ARYA (Inc) today:-

AUSTRALIAN RADIO YACHTING ASSOCIATION (Incorporated)

THE FUTURE OF RSD – POLICY STATEMENT

On 9 March 2009 a document titled The Future of ISAF-RSD was issued under the signature of the ISAF-RSD Permanent Committee (PC). The document supported a case for the transformation of the ISAF-RSD into an ISAF-recognised International Radio Sailing Class Association for the M, 10R and A classes, to be the sole agenda item for submission to an extra-ordinary General Assembly of ISAF-RSD.

(i) ARYA will question the validity of the actions of the PC for the reasons stated in the ARYA document titled “Future of RSD – Validity of PC.
(ii) ARYA is to approach the MNA for Australia, Yachting Australia (YA) to propose that YA recognise ARYA as the authority for radio sailing in Australia and that ARYA negotiate suitable terms of affiliation.
(iii) ARYA affirms its support for a self administered Radio Sailing Association preferably affiliated to ISAF as the International authority for radio sailing.
(iv) As the IOM NCA for Australia, ARYA supports the formation of a self administered International Radio Sailing Association preferably affiliated to ISAF as the co-coordinating authority for all radio sailing classes.
COMMENTS
ARYA supports the principle of radio sailors regulating their own sport. We are concerned that the ISAF or nothing approach adopted by our non-elected PC is not in the best interests of the sport and their model places co-ordination of radio sailors in the hands of other than experienced radio sailors.
There has been no firm figures provided as to the costs associate with ISAF affiliation and no guarantee has been provided in respect of the waiving of quite substantial establishment costs.
It is highly unlikely that there will be any member of the ISAF Class Rules Committee with radio sailing experience and despite the belief in some quarters within IOMICA that the ICA would have ownership of its class rules they should consult ISAF Regulations 15.2.6 (b) and 15.2.6 (e) and they will find the same constraints there as currently apply, additionally they would loose the current consultative committee arrangements. This would also apply to the A, 10R, and M classes should DM’s vote in favor of an ISAF recognised International Radio Sailing Class Association.
The Future of RSD 9 March 2009 document quotes a number of rights exclusive to ISAF classes including representation on the ISAF Classes Committee. Class rule discussions are specifically excluded in the terms of reference of this committee (Regulation 5.6.6 (c) ) thus substantially reducing any benefits of membership.
The majority of DM’s currently do not pay a per member fee to their MNA, a fee which currently applies to full size sailors. There is no guarantee that this exemption will continue under the arrangements proposed by the RSD PC.
There are many more aspects of the proposal that require careful consideration and those above are just some examples. That is why we need a RSD General Assembly to form a properly constituted Permanent Committee which can then consider all options and make considered recommendations for the future direction of radio sailing.

Action has been taken in relation to Item (i) and I have posted the following on the closed Furum for Division Member/PC discussion:-

The Executive of the Australian Radio Yachting Association (Incorporated) believes the actions of the ISAF-RSD Permanent Committee to be unconstitutional for the following reasons and requests the PC to address these matters. For the information of those members of this forum who are not familiar with the Association we are one of the larger DM's with in excess of 1000 members

On 9 March 2009 a document was issued under the name of the ISAF-RSD Permanent Committee (PC) advising of an electronic Extraordinary General Meeting to be held on 1 July 2009 where the issue of the future of RSD would be the only item on the agenda. The Executive of the Australian Radio Yachting Association has considered the circumstances surrounding the holding of a meeting at Southampton University on 14/15 February 2009 and the minutes of that meeting issued under the name of the ISAF Radio Sailing Division.

ARYA notes that the last General Assembly (GA) of the ISAF-RSD was held electronically during the week prior to 10 July 2005 and whilst it could be assumed that the business of the meeting was transacted in accordance with the agenda, no minutes were published. The ISAF-RSD Constitution-January 2003 Para 6.3 requires that a General Assembly shall be held at intervals of not less than 78 (seventy eight) weeks and not more than 130 (one hundred thirty) weeks which required the next GA to be held by February 2008 and this did not occur. Para 7.2 of the constitution is relevant and it is argued that the PC no longer held a mandate to manage the affairs of the Division at the expiration of 130 weeks from 15 July 2005. Until this time Mr. Jan Dejmo of the Division Member (DM) for Sweden held the office of Vice Chairman however on 1 March 2006, this DM became un-financial and according to the document Subscription Status of DM’s 2007 dated 11 January 2007, remains so. The PC should have required Mr. Dejmo to forfeit his office on the date SWE lost its standing as a financial member.

ARYA would argue that having regard to the above, the attendees at the meeting of 14/15 February were ineligible to conduct any business on behalf of RSD. ARYA further notes that the attendees listed as holding office in RSD numbered four (4) when the constitution requires that five (5) shall form a quorum (Para 7.10).

The February 2009 meeting appears to assume that if their motion is carried the RSD would then disband. This is contrary to Para 10.1 of the constitution which states that the Division shall not be dissolved while there remains a minimum of four fully paid up Division Members. We would argue that should a minimum of four DM’s vote against the motion then RSD would remain an entity. Further, we would question the 14/15 February meeting’s view that the current RSD funds “should be transferred to the ISRCA and that IOMICA should be entitled to 25% of the balance of the RSD funds less the amount previously advanced to IOMICA by RSD. The constitution (Para 10.1) requires that on dissolution, the assets of the Division shall be distributed in equal parts to the remaining Division Members and this can only be varied by an amendment to the constitution.

On more than one point, the action proposed by the meeting of 14/15 February is invalid. This should be acknowledged by withdrawal of the motion and the holding of a General Assembly after which a properly constituted Permanent Committee can recommend options for the future direction of RSD. We would be very concerned if ISAF were to endorse the decisions taken at an irregular meeting.

ARYA remains committed to a self administered International Radio Sailing Association, preferably affiliated to ISAF. The DM’s who responded to the 2003 document on the “Future of ISAF-RSDâ€
David Turton
IOMICA Treasurer

Jan Dejmo
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Post by Jan Dejmo » 30 Apr 2009, 07:58

The ISAF-RSD PC is working on having the situation and the relation to ISAF sorted out as soon as possible.

The PC is trying to prevent the One Metre class being effected and the initiative to have the class rules authority transferred to ISAF is one such step.

While sorting out the ISAF-RSD issues it would be very much appreciated if IOMICA would try to avoid rocking the ISAF-RSD boat.

Regards
Jan Dejmo
ISAF-RSD acting chairman

Roy648
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Location: New Zealand

Post by Roy648 » 01 May 2009, 01:46

While sorting out the ISAF-RSD issues it would be very much appreciated if IOMICA would try to avoid rocking the ISAF-RSD boat.
With respect Jan, the issue affects the IOMICA as much as any other class currently under RSD.

Are you saying stop rocking the boat so we can hijack the whole operation quietly?

I do not know the situation in Europe or the USA but suspect it is similar to the bottom half of the world where 100% of the organisation for Radio Sailing is done by volunteers giving their time pro bono. The proposals would appear to make life for these individuals extremely complicated with - how does a DM set annual fees and registration fees when they are subjected to fluctuating exchange rates. What is the timing required for submitting payment of the ISAF sticker fee. If the latter is do be done before each and every boat is allowed to officially partake in a contest then it is likely to mean that to register a boat with ISAF is going to cost in the order of NZ$ 50+ (UKP 5 x3, bank charges both ends for transmission, etc).

I can see the above will result in NZ registrations being reduced to near zero.

I can find no evidence during this whole saga spanning some 6-7 years where the PC have gone back to ISAF and tried to explain the dynamics of Radio Sailing and that applying big boat infrastructure to us is going to be entirely negative.

So the IOM community should but out. Why ? To effectively separate IOMs from the other classes is going to create a “them and us“ mentality. Whatever happens (ISAF convinced to rethink or some new organisation) I believe it is desirable for the IOMICA to be part of the overall R/S community.

To me, it appears this whole situation is being driven by people who are ISAF accredited in one form or another and are possibly pushing their own boat and forgetting about the membership as a whole.

Rather than saying stop rocking the boat it may be more beneficial to provide argument why the Australian post is not valid.
Roy Granich

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Post by ole_peder » 02 May 2009, 11:44

Today is is all RC sailing in Norway ( IOM) organized in ordinary sailing clubs under the Norwegian Sailing Federation apart from Norsk Modellseilforening, which has been the Norwegian representative since early 1920 when the International Model Yachting Union was started. We have a descition in NMS AGM to convert the club into a ordinary sailing Club to be in line with the rest.
We are sailing National Championships approved by the Norwegian Sailing Federation, and I hope that in the future the Nordic hampionships could be sanctioned by Sacndinavian Sailing Federation.

I think I speak for most of the sailiors in Norway, we have over 120 registered boats, when I want the RC sailing to be a fully integrated part of the ISAF system, and as such also IOMICA to be a International Class Ascossiation as other international classes.

The main reason is that we then can utilize the infrastructure already in place. And also recruit sailors already interested in sailing and not train model builders to be sailors.

ISAF is handling a lot of different classes and the RC classes is not very different from other classes, and RC sailing differs from other sailing only by the fact that the skippers are not sitting in the boat.

If RC sailing moves away from ISAF and formes a stand alone organisation I am afraid we will see the RC sailing in Norway as history in a few years.

Windsurfing is a multclass class ascossiation under ISAF and RC sailing can also be the same.

With IOM ICA as a very strong international class organisation and the rest the international RC classes under RSD with low activity, a multiclass type of organisation would be disadvantageous to those.

As it is today the IOM is the only class sailing international races as European Championships World championships and among the Nordic countries the Nordic Championships.

Conclution:

This is the IOM NCA for NOR position.

RC sailing must be fully implemented in ISAF.
IOMICA a ISAF recognized international class.
The rest of ISAF RSD classes must decide on their own how they will organize themselves.
Ole Peder Bjørsom
Chairman NOR NCA

Jan Dejmo
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Post by Jan Dejmo » 02 May 2009, 12:42

Comments on the Policy Statement by the Australian Radio Yachting Association

A Self Administrated International Authority for Radio Sailing
ARYA wrote:ARYA affirms its support for a self administered Radio Sailing Association preferably affiliated to ISAF as the International authority for radio sailing.
ISAF-RSD has been an interim solution while radio sailing making a final decision to fully join with ISAF, or to go fully independent again. A period that was also to be used to formulate radio sailing racing rules, class rules, etc. based on ISAF standards.

ISAF affiliates classes and a class shall be represented by an international class association. Thereby the motion that ISAF-RSD shall be transformed to a international multi class association. There is however nothing preventing this new organisation to take on a radio sailing co-ordination role too, like the International Windsufing Association, but it will not be affiliated to ISAF in this capacity.
ARYA wrote:ARYA supports the principle of radio sailors regulating their own sport.
ISAF-RSD going with ISAF will mean that radio sailing will be regulated in the same way as other disciples of sailing within ISAF. ISAF-RSD going independent of ISAF will mean that its sailors would fully regulate their activities.


ISAF
ARYA wrote:There has been no firm figures provided as to the costs associate with ISAF affiliation.
The final price for the ISAF boat sticker is based on an average retail price for a boat and is subject to negotiation between the class applying for ISAF status and ISAF. Of this reason the sticker fee for example for a One Metre will likely be less than that for a Marblehead.
ARYA wrote:… It is highly unlikely that there will be any member of the ISAF Class Rules Committee with radio sailing experience
Well, I am a member of the CRSC and I might perhaps qualify as somebody that has such experience. :)

ISAF of course compose their committees so that they should be fully capable of handling all disciplines of sailing affiliated to the Federation.
ARYA wrote:... despite the belief in some quarters within IOMICA that the ICA would have ownership of its class rules they should consult ISAF Regulations 15.2.6 (b) and 15.2.6 (e) and they will find the same constraints there as currently apply
The SCRC is to help a class to get the class rules that give the boats the class wants and class rules that do not create problems for other involved such as manufactures, measures, protest committee etc. My experience is that classes are grateful for this help, but ARYA is of course fully entitled to see this as not having ownership of its class rules.
ARYA wrote:Class rule discussions are specifically excluded in the terms of reference of [ISAF Classes Committee] (Regulation 55.6.6(c)) thus substantially reducing any benefits of membership.
The ICC discusses common class issues, liaises with other committees discussing class issues such as class rules and gives recommendations to the ISAF Council on class issues. This in no way limits a class’ influence over its own class rules.


ISAF Member National Authorities and DMs
ARYA wrote:ARYA is to approach the MNA for Australia, Yachting Australia (YA) to propose that YA recognise ARYA as the authority for radio sailing in Australia and that ARYA negotiate suitable terms of affiliation.
What happens on national level is all up to the national radio sailors and their MNA. This is not something ISAF wants to get involved in.
ARYA wrote:The majority of DM’s currently do not pay a per member fee to their MNA, a fee which currently applies to full size sailors.
I don’t share the view that it is a general rule that fullsize sailors pay a per member fee to its MNA. It varies form country to country.


Some Advantages going with ISAF

As the ARYA Policy Statement, as least in my view, paints a rather negative picture of ISAF I hope it is excused that I list some positive aspects of this world sailing organisation.

Some things ISAF has done for radio sailing while ISAF-RSD was to make up its mind of going with ISAF or not:
- Let ISAF-RSD use “ISAFâ€

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 19 May 2009, 15:55

duplicate
Last edited by Bruce Andersen on 19 May 2009, 16:01, edited 1 time in total.

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
Posts: 762
Joined: 25 Nov 2003, 00:06
Sail number: USA 16
Club: Famous Potatoes Sailing Club
Design: Brit Pop
Location: USA 16

Post by Bruce Andersen » 19 May 2009, 15:59

Got this in the mail today:

Dear DM's,

Here is the result of the 17th May vote concerning "Validity of PC's Actions"

Option A has 3 votes - CRO, ESP, POR
Option B has 15 votes - AUS, AUT, BRA, DEN, FRA, GBR, MLT, NED, NZL, POL, RSA, SLO, SUI, USA, CAN
There are 2 Abstentions - ITA, JPN.
One vote received too late - NOR
7 DMs have not voted - ARG, BAR, BEL, FIN, GER, IRL, SWE.
There are 3 defaulters with no voting rights - GRE, SAM, YUG.

As a result the PC has stopped the 1st June vote concerning "The ISAF-RSD shall transform into an ISAF-recognised International Radio
Sailing Class Association for the M, 10R, and A classes."

The PC also announces the date for a General Assembly, the only mechanism for electing a new PC. The date of the GA and the official notice is attached to this email and posted on the RSD website.

Regards
Keith Skipper
Gen Secretary / Treasurer

The General Assembly of ISAF RSD will be held via email during the week of 15th – 21st November 2009. Notice is hear by given that Motions and Nominations for Officers of the Permanent Committee should be sent to the General Secretary as laid down in the Constitution.
For your guidance the Time Scale of events leading up to the General Assembly is:

23rd May - Notice sent out to Division Members by this date.
4th July - Motions from DMs to be returned by this date to the General Secretary.
1st August - Motions submitted sent out to all DMs by this date.
29th August - Amendments to Motions and Nominations for Officers to be returned by this date to the General Secretary.
26th September – Agenda sent out to Division Members by this date.

As per the Constitution all Officers retire at the General Assembly. The positions are:

Chairman
Vice Chairman
General Secretary/Treasurer
Racing Committee Chairman
Technical Committee Chairman
Organisation & Policy Committee Chairman
Publicity Officer
Regional Officer Americas
Regional Officer Europe
Regional Officer Oceania
Motions and Nominations shall be sent under the signature of a Senior Officer of the Division Member to:

keith@skippernet.co.uk

Or

Keith Skipper
General Secretary/Treasurer
26 Sebert Road
Bury St Edmunds
IP32 7EG
England

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