2013 AGM Schedule

Discuss how IOMICA and IOM NCAs operate

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Barry Fox CAN262
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2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 25 Sep 2013, 05:39

Please find attached the announcement of the schedule for the 2013 IOM ICA Annual General Meeting.

It should be fairly self-explanatory. Of importance is that this is an elections year. I will not be seeking another term as Chairman so there is opportunity for someone to fill that position for sure. Many of the current Exec are willing to stand again and that should assure some continuity within that group.

Soon the attached notice will also be posted on the IOM ICA Website front page.
Attachments
AGM 2013 Notice of Meeting.doc
The Schedule of mileposts for the 2013 AGM
(30KiB)Downloaded 401 times
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Dick Carver » 31 Oct 2013, 19:37

Are there any resolutions for the class members to vote on this time around ?
Dick Carver

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 01 Nov 2013, 04:33

Really only one to do with some clarification in the Chamnpionship Regulations. The agenda and anything else will be broadcast by the weekend.
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 05 Nov 2013, 19:06

As stated previously there is only one really vote able resolution this year. So the result of that is that I won't start a whole new section to house any discussion about that resolution.

The Agenda is now posted on the ICA Website and anyone can pick it up there.

We have had one question regarding the resolution. That concerned whether the "50" was connected to the eligible voters count for each country or the number that actually voted. It is clearly the count of eligible owners and NOT the number that actually vote.

That means that the number of spaces you are guaranteed will be 1 if you have less than 50 Certificated Owners as of the AGM that is held prior to the Championship Regatta and 2 if you have more than that.
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Olivier Cohen
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 06 Nov 2013, 23:50

It's also important to note that if that resolution is validated by AGM, NCA which don't give owners number before AGM will be counted as 0 owners for next event.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Ken Dobbie » 07 Nov 2013, 00:10

Sounds like a good reason to vote NO

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Bruce Andersen » 07 Nov 2013, 00:26

I wonder, given the cancellation of one WC and a dismal attendance at the most recent WC, if we should perhaps be more concerned in increasing entries rather than limiting them.
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 12 Nov 2013, 13:53

Ken Dobbie wrote:Sounds like a good reason to vote NO
No, it's a good reason for NCAs to send their numbers.

The main point behind that proposal is to make a World Championship a real one. If we get others NCAs with current rules, we may get only 2 places for all countries attending. And this wouldn't be a world championship with only 2 competitors from UK, CRO for example considering the level in those countries.

In a World Championship you need the best in the world, and with only 2 from each country, it wouldn't be true.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 12 Nov 2013, 13:54

Bruce Andersen wrote:I wonder, given the cancellation of one WC and a dismal attendance at the most recent WC, if we should perhaps be more concerned in increasing entries rather than limiting them.
Which cancellation are you talking about Bruce ?

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Bruce Andersen » 14 Nov 2013, 01:38

Spain
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 14 Nov 2013, 09:18

Spain was an Euro, but it wasn't cancelled due to lack of participation issues.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Bruce Andersen » 15 Nov 2013, 02:45

I stand corrected.

Perhaps it is a good idea to pass legislation to make it more difficult to sail in IOMICA regattas!

I officially change my mind - more power to this proposal!
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Fred Rocha USA 33 » 16 Nov 2013, 21:22

Hi all,

Point of view from a Race Organizer:

A World Championship or like any other event, to be called a "TRUE ONE" we must consider many factors before we even think about participants.
Race Organizers, Race Committee, Sailing Venue, Government, Insurance, Accommodation, Jury, Volunteers and the list go on. Time off, vacation time and before you even notice....."bingo" you are spending money out your pocket.

Everything trying to ensure "THE BEST EVENT EVER".....even when we all know the definition of "THE BEST" is open for different opinions and interpretations.

Based on 2012 AGM IOM ICA 12 out 27 NCAs won't be able to guarantee a spot....

http://iomclass.org/doc-files/Administr ... esults.pdf
Bruce Andersen wrote:wouldn't be a world championship with only 2 competitors from UK, CRO for example considering the level in those countries
And about an IOM WC without countries like CAN, BAR, SWE, BRA, NOR, SUI, ISR and etc?

We all have opportunity to speak up.

Tomorrow is the deadline for all NCAs send your Owner's list in to the 2013 AGM. As a Class Member, I urge you to contact your National Class Officer and vote.

I must remember that the IOM ICA Exec. members are volunteers and they work hard to provide the best organization for the IOM Class based in each NCA's feedback.

Best,

Fred Rocha
USA IOM NCS

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Olivier Cohen
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 16 Nov 2013, 21:28

Fred Rocha USA 33 wrote: Based on 2012 AGM IOM ICA 12 out 27 NCAs won't be able to guarantee a spot....

http://iomclass.org/doc-files/Administr ... esults.pdf
Bruce Andersen wrote:wouldn't be a world championship with only 2 competitors from UK, CRO for example considering the level in those countries
And about an IOM WC without countries like CAN, BAR, SWE, BRA, NOR, SUI, ISR and etc?

Fred Rocha
USA IOM NCS
Fred, with new rule, those 12 countries would get 1 spot instead of 2 with current one, but not 0. Maybe a misunderstanding here.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Fred Rocha USA 33 » 17 Nov 2013, 00:54

Olivier,
Fred Rocha USA 33 wrote: with new rule, those 12 countries would get 1 spot instead of 2 with current one, but not 0. Maybe a misunderstanding here.
As Barry said before

That means that the number of spaces you are guaranteed will be 1 if you have less than 50 Certificated Owners as of the AGM that is held prior to the Championship Regatta and 2 if you have more than that.

Sorry about my misunderstanding......

Thank you much for the clarification.

Cheers,

Fred

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Jens Amenda » 21 Nov 2013, 19:52

Olivier Cohen wrote: In a World Championship you need the best in the world, and with only 2 from each country, it wouldn't be true.
Why not? Should it be a WORLD Championship or a Championship of the world best sailors? There is a little difference in the words...

The problem of in-active NCA´s is another one which should not be solved in this way.

MY thinking: I hope this will not come true!

And: I´m not a football fan, but can say that these sportsman are more fair than us - or did you heared from that there was only half of a team to a WC, because they had been last in their qualification group or come from a small country with only 2 clubs and 22 fans (the footballers wifes)?

I´m really surprised about such thinking

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 22 Nov 2013, 11:38

Jens Amenda wrote:
And: I´m not a football fan, but can say that these sportsman are more fair than us - or did you heared from that there was only half of a team to a WC, because they had been last in their qualification group or come from a small country with only 2 clubs and 22 fans (the footballers wifes)?

I´m really surprised about such thinking
Jens, it's a proposal, you can vote for or against, and you can also propose here or directly on my email something else to improve the situation regarding places allowed based on previous events.
We believe that using "size" of NCA to define number of minimum places at stage1 is a good and logical solution, but you may have another one.

Besides, I don't see the point with "half of a team" as IOM sailing is an individual sport.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Jens Amenda » 22 Nov 2013, 17:59

Hi Olivier,

the present system gives every NCA the same "chance" to compete in a CC or WC. In my eyes this is a fair solution, if we see a CC or WC not only as a competition of individuals - it gives a (small) advantage to a competition of nations (NCA´s)....to declare "half of a team"

What is wrong on this? Do you know what happens next? Maybe sometimes there will be 2 superfantastic sailors from Malta, you will find them on every international race in good places - and only 1 of them ca go to the Worlds? ...yes, this is only an imagination...

The description at the agendea is not correct - in the Class Championship Rules are 84 as the max number of competitors named. So at time we have 20 free places in stage 1.

What is the practical situation?

At EC´s often had been a lot of free places, and it was more difficult than easy to fill them. Resulting from this often we had 2...3 nations with more than 10 sailors.
Ok, in this situation every NCA has chances for more places at the final. But it is no basic fairness!
At Worlds ... now,it´s a question where it takes place, the travelling costs etc... so it is almost unreal to find all NCA at an event. 27 it only theory...

I would understand such a proposal if we had more than 35 full member NCA´s, and than (at first) only by thinking about a WC.

Surely some NCA´s seems to need a little wake-up-call, but this is also only half of the truth. I remember the last AGM, on which GER did not voted - only in fact of a misunderstanding. At the final maybe it depends on the work of 1 human voluntary person... hmm ... NO.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 22 Nov 2013, 18:41

Hi Jens,

This is not true :
1/ 84 would be a maximum with 4 promoted HMS 5 heats, but we use 6 promoted for smoother racing, so maximum 76.
2/ If Malta or BEL has 2 great sailors, they will get 2 spots, maybe not at first event but at next one, as they will get places based on previous results. And I would say that they have more possibilities to get 3 or more places if that proposal is accepted, because max limit is still the same at stage 1 (8 places) but we will go deeper in ranking to allocate places based on previous events.
As explained with current number of NCA's, we take 12 top results with current rules, we will go to 24 based on owners declared for this AGM if that proposal is voted.
And 24 top results, but still with max allocation of 8.


As an example, below a simulation of a (virtual) allocation for a WC in USA 2014 based on this AGM 2013 and WC 2013 results.

WC Rob Walsh
2 places for each NCA 50 owners or bigger (AUS, BRA, CAN, CRO, ESP, FRA, GBR, GER, IRL, ITA, NZL, POR, RSA, SWE, USA) so 30 places
1 place for 12 others (ARG, BAR, BEL, CHI, DEN, ISR, MLT, NED, SUI, TUR+ FIN and NOR ) so 12 places
4 for host NCA (USA as an example)
5 IOMICA guests
So 52 places allocated.
We have 24 more places to allocate based on WC 2013 result.
Ranking is :
1 GBR +1(3)
2 CRO +1(3)
3 DEN +1 (2)
4 CRO +1(3)
5 CRO +1(4)
6 GBR +1(4)
7 CRO +1(5)
8 CRO +1 (6)
9 CRO +1 (7)
10 FRA +1 (3)
11 CRO +1(8 maximum reached)
12 USA +1 (7)
13 USA +1 (8 max)
14 CRO
15 NED +1(2)
16 USA
17 SWE +1(3)
18 ISR +1(2)
19 FRA +1(4)
20 ISR +1(3)
21 ISR +1(4)
22 SWE +1(4)
23 GBR +1 (5)
24 SWE +1(5)
25 SWE +1 (6)
26 GBR +1 (6) 24 places allocated
So we go up to 26th ranked sailor to allocate, and we get USA and CRO with 8 places, GBR and SWE 6, ISR and FRA 4, DEN 2 and all others as described above.

With current rules we would have 12 places to allocate :
1 GBR +1(3)
2 CRO +1(3)
3 DEN +1 (3)
4 CRO +1(3)
5 CRO +1(4)
6 GBR +1(4)
7 CRO +1(5)
8 CRO +1 (6)
9 CRO +1 (7)
10 FRA +1 (3)
11 CRO +1(8 maximum reached)
12 USA +1 (7)

So only top 12 NCAs would get additional places, with CRO with 8 places, USA as host 7, GBR 4, DEN and FRA 3 and all others 2 places.

Which one do you prefer ?
I do prefer rewarding participation to events.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Jens Amenda » 23 Nov 2013, 16:24

Hi Olivier,

thanks for your work to show the difference. Grey theory. Please remember all past events - we never had only stage 1 to fill the places, and your thoughts become true by itself in stage 2.
The final reality is, when the last entry form arrives.

What I do prefer (again) is basical fairness to every member NCA, how big or small it is - as long as we can deal with this.

Getting additional places in fact of good results at the last event is a honoration for these good results (and this ist ok, of course), but it should not have this importance you want to give to that.
Not at first and not in stage 1.

Doing the change is - I´m sorry for my words - a little step too much in a direction of becoming "arrogant" , an this is not a good label for this class.
Good sailors -bad sailors - at the final the best will win. Ever. And be sure - he has to work very hard for this, with or without a second one from ARG, MLT...

To support your thoughts I propose to organise an invitation Regatta for the (subjectiv) best sailors in the world - outside every CC or WC. Think this should fulfill your wishes. Maybe you can re-activate Michal S. for this - I´m sure he is the only one GER sailor with this level height.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 23 Nov 2013, 17:55

Hi Jens,

As you become insultant, I won't answer.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by soeren_andresen » 25 Nov 2013, 11:39

Maybe it could make some sense for WC, but deffenately not for CC. Just an example.

Due to the fact that the last EC was moved, Denmark was not able to send any skippers, so DEN will not get any extra spots.
With the current rules DEN gets 3 spots, but with the proposal DEN will only get one spot.

To me that don't seems fair.

Best regards
Søren
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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Olivier Cohen » 25 Nov 2013, 13:19

Hi Soren.

Why 3 spots with current rules as no DEN was in Croatia ?

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by Jens Amenda » 25 Nov 2013, 13:25

Hello Olivier,

if you feel so - please let me say I´m sorry. No word was written to do this.

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Re: 2013 AGM Schedule

Post by soeren_andresen » 25 Nov 2013, 15:51

Sorry Olivier, I stand corrected, it is only 2 spots for the CC.
I think I wrongfully remembered the rules from way back ;-)
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