How to get recognized as an IOM fleet?

Discuss how IOMICA and IOM NCAs operate

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Arvin S.

How to get recognized as an IOM fleet?

Post by Arvin S. » 28 Jun 2004, 08:55

We have been hard at work in trying to promote the IOM class in the Philippines. Currently we have at least 3 IOM boats with 4 on the way.

Luckily I am in the position now of being able to talk to our National Sailing Authority which is the PSA to actually recognize our IOM fleet. However I am almost sure that they will not know what to do with us. In terms of recognition and supoort. My questions are more about what relationship will the IOM fleet have with the NSA?

1. Do the IOM fleet have to pay a fee to the NSA? (if so how much?)
2. Does the NSA have to inform ISAF about our country's Radio Sailing fleet?
3. Are there extra fees to pay to ISAF? Aside from our NSA paying the yearly dues that they should pay to ISAF?

The reason I ask this is because a friend of mine informed me that in Singapore the National authority is asking their IOM fleet to pay some fees in order for them to recognize the fleet, apparently to get RSD started there are extra fees to pay! Is this true?

Any other info/advice on how we can go about organizing ourself in order for our IOM fleet to be internationally recognized? And hopefully in the future be able to support the IOMICA?

Looking forward to your replies. :D

TTFN
Arvin

jandejmo
Posts: 64
Joined: 25 Nov 2003, 07:47

Re: How to get recognized as an IOM fleet?

Post by jandejmo » 28 Jun 2004, 09:35

Arvin S. wrote:1. Do the IOM fleet have to pay a fee to the NSA? (if so how much?)
This is up to the Member National Authority – using ISAF nomenclature – to decide.

Usually MNAs require a national class association – which your fleet probably will be recognised as – to pay a class association fee.
Arvin S. wrote:2. Does the NSA have to inform ISAF about our country's Radio Sailing fleet?
No.
Arvin S. wrote:3. Are there extra fees to pay to ISAF? Aside from our NSA paying the yearly dues that they should pay to ISAF?
No.


Regards

Jan Dejmo

Ken Dobbie
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RSD and IOM Recognition

Post by Ken Dobbie » 30 Jun 2004, 05:25

Hi Arvin

If your group contacts me directly I will be pleased to assist with this.

Regards


Ken Dobbie
Regional Officer Oceania
Radio Sailing Division

kendobbie@netspace.net.au

Arvin S.

RSD and NCA Self reply

Post by Arvin S. » 19 Jul 2004, 12:05

Thanks to those who have replied to my inquiry both in the forum and through private messages.

For info of others who visit, as of now from what I understand these are the steps you can do to get recognized and affiliated.

1. Contact your MNA (member national authority) they are the organization that is recognized by ISAF, they are your National Authority.

Ask them if they can recognize your org as IOM fleet in your country and make a memorandum of Agreement or any letter, document stating that the MNA gives your organization the right to act on behalf of them when IOMs or Radio sailing is involved. Basically asked if your MNA will "right of being a Division member to your gruop".

If not the MNA will become Division Member.

2. Whether it be the MNA or your group that will be Division member, that organization will then have to apply or request for affiliation or recognition from ISAF- RSD (Radio Sailind Division) which is a separate organization for Radio control but under ISAF.

This means a different fee to pay. Fees depend on number of boats in yoru country.

3. Once your country has a Division member of RSD, then the IOM hull and sail numbers can be issued as well as measurement, etc. If your MNA is the DM, then you can form a class association (IOM fleet) and request for recognition from IOMICA to be a National Class Association (NCA). If your organization is the DM, you can do the same thing just ask recognition from IOMICA to become an NCA. You will need to formulate a constitution for your organization, as an IOM-NCA. No fees in being an NCA for IOM though.

http://www.iomclass.org/Information/NCAs/NCAs.htm for more information.


4. Basically as I understand it the two organizations ISAF-RSD and IOMICA has two separate reasons and responsibilities.

The ISAF-RSD is responsible for maintaining and updating the Appendix E of the ISAF Rules of Racing. And also they are responsible for recognizing new Radio control classes as an International class. Sort of a "Scale Model ISAF" or "ISAF for Model Yachting".

The IOMICA on the other hand is the same as the full sized International Class Associations of ISAF, such as Lasers, 420s, Optis, etc. etc. It's responsibility is to govern the Class and maintain and update the class rules, of course also in promoting the class itself.

I am not 100% sure, but I think IOMICA is also the ones that will approve International (IOM) events such as Worlds, etc. etc.

(My opinion only)
5. My ownly complaint about this current system is the need for the MNA or the DM to pay an extra fee to RSD.

Do understand that the RSD is just an affiliate of ISAF, and thus I guess the need to generate funds through the fees in order to do it's job. I have no idea why ISAF itself wanted to have RSD as an affiliate to do the job of managing Radio control, when I imagine ISAF itself can do the same without much extra cost and effort (which means the MNA just pays one fee to ISAF not one fee to ISAF and the other to ISAF RSD).

My best guest is the ISAF wanted to leave RC sailors to regulate themselves and thus the RSD was born.

TTFN
Arvin

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 26 Sep 2005, 12:20

And does anyone know if there is anyway an individual sailor can get recognised (by IOMICA/ISAF or whoever is governing the sport) apart from via 'his'/an NCA/DM/MNA?

The specific problem which I am thinking of is as follows:

A Mr X lives and sails permanently (and is legally resident) in country Y although he is a citizen of country Z.
Mr X is obliged to pay his dues to the MNA and NCA of country Y where he is resident and sails.
Country Y only allows nationals of its own country (not permanent residents) into it's national sailing team/squad (logical I guess).
Whilst resident Mr X has a reasonbly good ranking in country Y (but obviously none in country Z) he is excluded from the benefits and support (including any financial support for travel to international events) of being in the national team of country Y although they are more than happy for him to 'represent' country Y at all events and indeed insist on him placing country Y's national letters on his sails at international events.

All of this seems a bit crazy. I realise that only nationals can represent a country (same in the Olympics and for example, in elections the world over), but Mr X is lost in no-mans land....
I realise that if nationality isn't important to Mr X he could change his nationality to that of country Y.
I also realise that it is Mr X's own free choice to live in country Y and he must accept the 'laws' of that country but surely there should be a way to not represent a country in particular? Why can't we act as individuals and represent no-one but ourselves if we choose. I am sure there are many people who are very proud to represent their country in sports events, I would be too given the chance, but with borders disappearing rapidly (within Europe at least) it seems a bit archaic.
And why, if sail numbers are not repeated at IOM international events do we need to put country letters on our sails?

Any thoughts or comments?
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Laurent Schock
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Post by Laurent Schock » 26 Sep 2005, 13:23

VCmeasurement wrote:And does anyone know if there is anyway an individual sailor can get recognised (by IOMICA/ISAF or whoever is governing the sport) apart from via 'his'/an NCA/DM/MNA?

The specific problem which I am thinking of is as follows:

A Mr X lives and sails permanently (and is legally resident) in country Y although he is a citizen of country Z.
Mr X is obliged to pay his dues to the MNA and NCA of country Y where he is resident and sails.

And why, if sail numbers are not repeated at IOM international events do we need to put country letters on our sails?

Any thoughts or comments?
That would be me...
I don't know much about fees and registering as I received my IOM a month ago and am now trying to get my sail numbers!

But, I somehow feel a bit "sad" that I can't put "my" countries letters on my sails :(

Very intersting case...
-Laurent Schock

Roy Thompson
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Post by Roy Thompson » 26 Sep 2005, 13:30

Laurent said
That would be me
And me too.....

I don't want to put any letters on my sails......
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Lester
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Post by Lester » 26 Sep 2005, 14:09

VCmeasurement wrote:And does anyone know if there is anyway an individual sailor can get recognised (by IOMICA/ISAF or whoever is governing the sport) apart from via 'his'/an NCA/DM/MNA?
Hi Roy

As far as I know, no way... The "chain of command" very much runs Sailor -> Club -> MNA -> ISAF.
The specific problem which I am thinking of ... I realise that only nationals can represent a country
Not strictly true. Again, as far as I know, this is a matter for the national authority, so for example GBR is happy to invite "anyone" to join the GBR team provided (1) they rank properly on the GBR ranking list, and (2) they satisfy a residency requirement which is, as far as I know, the same as the RSD (and IOMICA) requirement as expressed in the Class Championship Regulations.

So the issue lies with a particular MNA or NCA. In the case of IOMICA, it is an NCA issue, since it is the NCA which enters a competitor to an international event. Ask the new IOMICA Exec to look into it. Perhaps the new VC Events could be asked to recommend to the World Council that all NCAs should adopt a common and consistent policy.
And why, if sail numbers are not repeated at IOM international events do we need to put country letters on our sails?
Required as per RRS E6 / RRS G. The issue is not one of identification for scoring purposes, but one of identification for disciplinary (and media) purposes as far as I know. In all disciplinary matters, my understanding is that this is done via the competitor's national authority in the first place, so this detail is included on the sails...
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

cfwahl
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Post by cfwahl » 02 Oct 2005, 03:26

VCmeasurement wrote:A Mr X lives and sails permanently (and is legally resident) in country Y although he is a citizen of country Z.
Mr X is obliged to pay his dues to the MNA and NCA of country Y where he is resident and sails.
Country Y only allows nationals of its own country (not permanent residents) into it's national sailing team/squad (logical I guess).
Whilst resident Mr X has a reasonbly good ranking in country Y (but obviously none in country Z) he is excluded from the benefits and support (including any financial support for travel to international events) of being in the national team of country Y although they are more than happy for him to 'represent' country Y at all events and indeed insist on him placing country Y's national letters on his sails at international events.
Well, my understanding is that nationality and residency have nothing to do with yacht registration, in a legal sense. An ISAF MNA may register/certify yachts from any person they wish to, no matter where they reside, or what their nationality is. Now convenience/accessibility enters into this, because the measurer must be some person recognized by the MNA registering/certifying a boat. MNAs decide who is recognized.

I will give you an example. I am a USA citizen who (for reasons you might guess at) does not wish to carry the letters USA on my sails. I've registered my boat with the friendly and sane (certainly in terms of world citizenship) folks in Canada, and joined the CRYA in order to do that. Canada and the US pretty much recognize each others measurers for IOM purposes, so I can actually have my boat measured in the US. I still belong and pay dues to the US MNA, the AMYA, but I no longer have my boat registered in the US, so I forgo voting rights in the US MNA, for Class Secretary, etc. Works for me.

So if Mr X doesn't mind forgoing country Y's "support" such as it is, he is free to register/certify in his citizenship country Z, or with countries A, B or C, if he finds that more convenient. I live in New York City, and at our pond, we have Brazilian and French nationals registered in the USA, an American registered in SUI, the country of his dual citizenship, and myself, the political renegade.

As far as becoming a "stateless person" from the ISAF point-of-view, I think that's not going to work. ISAF basically deals only with MNAs, to my knowledge.
Charles Wahl

Muzza
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Post by Muzza » 02 Oct 2005, 17:02

I think I see where Arvin is coming from.

As a former expatriate resident in a South East Asian country, I was not eligible to represent that country in the class I sailed (we're talking dinghies, not RC boats). Irrespective of any international rules re eligibility - this country had its own rules. At the time, I was No. 2 in the country (it was many years ago). Realistically I could not be selected for my own country, as I had no track record there in that particular class, and would have had to either arrange to compete at home, or fund myself to open regional or world events in order to give my own country the opportunity to rank me - neither of which were not financially viable.

Is that the issue your contact faces Arvin? I suspect we may even be talking about the same country. (Unless it's Laurent - I wasn't in Japan).

Even so, I think Charles is right. Register under the home "flag" and find a negotiate a "wild card" of merit selection for the "home" country rather the country of residence.
Murray Buckman
USA 274

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