Hull Corrector Weights

Discuss the IOM class rules and interpretations

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EKEvens
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Hull Corrector Weights

Post by EKEvens » 21 Jan 2004, 20:26

Simple question:

Can hull corrector weights be moved to a new fixed location after measurement without voiding the certificate?

The rule (C.4.3) says that corrector weight needed to bring the yacht up to the required minimum weight of 4.0 kg are allowed, and that they must be "fixed in/on the hull".

Does "fixed" mean "permanently fixed in a location at the time of measurement, never to be moved without voiding the measurement certificate", or does "fixed" mean "firmly attached to the hull" ?
If I move my weights from one "fixed" location to another "fixed" location between regattas (or between heats, for that matter), have I violated the rule?

Please note that A.13.1c states that a boat ceases to comply with the rules upon "alteration or repair of equipment required by the measurement form(s) to be measured". The corrector weights are not an item listed on the measurement forms.

What say you all?

EKE
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Re: Hull Corrector Weights

Post by Chairman » 21 Jan 2004, 21:39

EKEvens wrote:Can hull corrector weights be moved to a new fixed location after measurement without voiding the certificate?
Hi EKE

My unofficial opinion is to note that C.4.3 is in section C of the rules -- ie it specifies the condition of the boat at an event, and does not specify something that is measured at fundamental measurement by an official measurer. So I guess that "fixed" means "firmly attached to the hull".
If I move my weights from one "fixed" location to another "fixed" location between regattas (or between heats, for that matter), have I violated the rule?
I think these are two different circumstances. Changing the boat between events is not a problem so long as compliance with the rules is not affected, and in my opinion the corrector weight can certainly be moved and/or changed in this case. However, moving the corrector weight between heats is another matter, and (again in my unofficial opinion!) would be covered by E4.7 which prohibits it.
RRS Appendix E wrote: E4.7: Moving Ballast: Rule 51 is replaced with: During an event and unless class rules specify otherwise, (a) ballast shall not be shifted, shipped or unshipped; [etc]
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Re: Hull Corrector Weights

Post by Steve Landeau » 21 Jan 2004, 22:23

would be covered by E4.7 which prohibits it.
RRS Appendix E wrote: E4.7: Moving Ballast: Rule 51 is replaced with: During an event and unless class rules specify otherwise, (a) ballast shall not be shifted, shipped or unshipped; [etc]
[/quote]

Good catch, Lester! I would not have thought to look in appendix E for this. Now, does this mean the battery must go back in exactly the same place, and be exactly the same weight?
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Post by Ralph Knowles » 22 Jan 2004, 02:34

Hi Steve

I humbly stand corrected about the movement of hull ballast as has been discussed on the other general forum. I can now add Lesters gem of wisdom to my information bank. I also failed to refer to app.E before pontificating. Even so I would be a bit anxious about half a pound of lead rattling about inside a fragile hull, as most of the super-lightweight IOMs are, because the 'fixing' was of such a temporary arrangement, that the ballast could be readily moved.

Cheers
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Re: Hull Corrector Weights

Post by Rob Davis » 22 Jan 2004, 04:25

Good catch, Lester! I would not have thought to look in appendix E for this. Now, does this mean the battery must go back in exactly the same place, and be exactly the same weight?
I would say yes the battery of the same weight should be used throughout the regatta placed in the same spot from beginning until end.

Rob
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Post by Roy Thompson » 22 Jan 2004, 18:05

I am not so sure that that's exactly the case with batteries. Batteries are not counted as ballast, no? In which case they wouldn't fall under E4.7(a).

That said, E4.7(b) talks about 'control equipment'. Do batteries fall into this category? - D2.4 says they do. Do event measurers note down the weight and position of battery packs for every boat? I doubt it. The critical word is 'similar' place and weight. And even if you must use a similar weight and position, what's the allowed difference between the weight of 2 different battery packs and when does the difference become illegal? 2gms, 5gms, 15gms?????? What exactly is 'similar'. I guess 120gm and 65gm packs are different, but 140 and 120gm or 65 and 80gm?
And tolerance for position? - probably the velcro in a pot doesn't allow much movement but maybe 20mm or more (for or aft edge of pot)? And if you don't have a pot, the options for battery fixing in various positions open up even more. Is this OK? Who's checking?
What I think the rules are trying to avoid are people positioning different weights of battery packs in different positions depending on the conditions in each heat. But if it's something that isn't specifically checked in events (between heats etc) it's a bit unrealistic.
If I change down to a smaller rig, can't I put in heavier battery pack (in the same position) into my pot? Probably no, but whose going to check? Wrong spirit eh? Of the 5 packs of batteries I have, three are 5 x AA cell size and weigh about 120gms with another higher powered one a bit heavier at 140gms and two are lower powered 5xAAA size and weigh about 60/65gms. Can I change between 120 and 140gm? If the answer is yes is it because they're 5 x AA cells and therefor 'similar'? I guess I can't change between 120gm and 65 gm, no? (assuming that my minimum boat weight is legal).
Too many loose ends I fear.
Just some ideas.
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Post by JohnB » 22 Jan 2004, 21:13

On the light side of things. :lol:
This there a weight changed between a fully charged batteries and dischanged battaries?????

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Post by IanHB » 23 Jan 2004, 10:05

During the 1997 World champs in Wellington we check weighed a number of boats straight off the water after finishing. They were allowed to drain any water only.
Two of these compeditors were found to be under weight.
Their excuse was that they had replaced their batteries as used at the earlier registration weighin with another and o dear they must be different.
The moral, make sure what ever you use you are not underweight.


WE WILL GET YOU!
DO IT NOW BEFORE IT`S TOO LATE!

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Post by Roy Thompson » 23 Jan 2004, 11:12

Yes, even if we are talking about 5 grams difference between battery packs, your boat must always be at or above the 4.kg min weight at any time during a regata. Imagine if the boats were dried, as they should be - even worse eh? Out of interest (it's now history) what happened to these boats? Any penalty or dsq applied?
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Post by Steve Landeau » 23 Jan 2004, 18:33

I'll throw my batteries on the cycler and post the difference between fully empty and fully charged. I don't think the Nicads will change enough to show a difference, but if you were using wet cells, they would.
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Post by Roy Thompson » 23 Jan 2004, 19:32

We're getting into the realms of Formula 1 motorsport here, weighing boats before and after with fully charged and empty cells - it's a bit much eh, but it'd be intersting to know if it's measurable?
But the question of 'similar' wt and pos'n for batteries is a bit open to interpretation, don't you think?
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Post by Steve Landeau » 24 Jan 2004, 07:22

Ok, all. There is no measurable difference between a fully charged, AA 5 cell, 1100MaH pack and one of the same that is fully discharged.
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Post by Roy Thompson » 24 Jan 2004, 10:03

Thank goodness for that!!!!

In any case, even if there is a difference, it is likely to be acceptable under App E since you haven't replaced or moved the batteries and as long as you don't fall under the 4kg min wt.
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Corrector weights

Post by Ken Dobbie » 25 Jan 2004, 06:07

As a IOM measurer I insist that corrector weights if required be securely affixed to the hull and by that I mean securely and not wedged under a servo or attached by other means such as velcro. I recommend a dab of silicon which will permit removal (with a bit of difficulty) if required at a later stage to reballast boat say after repairs have added weight to the hull.

I use a proforma of my own design to record the weight of hull, fin and each rig, the correctors and any ballast added to the #2 and 3 rigs and give a copy to the owner. I also use this form to record the weight of the battery pack with which the boat was weighed and the weight of each jib counter balance. I alert the owner to the fact that batteries of different capacity vary in weight.

All this provides the owner with an aid to keep their boat weight legal, loose a jib counter balance just check the form for the weight of counter balance required to maintain weight.

Regards

Ken

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Post by Roy Thompson » 25 Jan 2004, 21:33

Well done Ken, sounds like you've got it cracked, and not only that, your 'clients' get the correct info to help them stay class and race legal.

Just to clear up a bit of terminology, I assume by 'corrector weights' you mean the additional ballast needed to bring the boat up to the min 4kg limit for racing, and by 'ballast added' on the 2 and 3 rigs you mean the extra grams you need to add to a 2 or 3 rig typically near the mast base - called by many people 'corrector weights'.
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Post by IanHB » 26 Jan 2004, 00:07

Roy, The offending underweight boats were disqualifed from the race they were currently in and relegated to the bottom of the lowest fleet.
That is apart from the disgrace.
DO IT NOW BEFORE IT`S TOO LATE!

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Post by ralph kelley » 26 Jan 2004, 01:03

This is developing into an interesting discussion. Let me add some fuel to this discussion.

I think the position taken by Roy in an earlier posting makes a lot of sense. We should only put into our Rules, or our individual interpretation to the Rules, things that are can be inspected and verified. And if we are not going to inspect for a specific feature in the Rules, maybe it should not be there.

While batteries are, in practical terms, inside ballast, they are really part of the RC control system, not ballast per se. As such, the Rules do not currently specify that batteries can not be located at different parts of the hull to match different wind and water conditions. (In at least one USA class I am familiar with, it is common practice to have batteries in either the central hull area in normal wind conditions, or in high wind conditions, aft near the transom.)

If the class members want the batteries to be fixed in one location, the Rules must be amended to add this limitation. And then a tolerance must be added to limit the practical movement between each different time the batteries are affixed to the boat. And then the Rules must think about different battery packs and allow the skippers to locate, say a 4 cell pack in a different location than a 6 cell pack, etc., which might require different locations for CG balance. Messy, and probably impractical to control.

I think Roy is correct in that we cannot reasonably expect any event management team to go to the trouble of verification as to the location of a battery pack during an event. How would they do this? Take digital photos of every installation, with an appropriate scale included in the image, so that one can perform some random check during the event? This seems impractical to me.

Ken has taken the position that “fixedâ€

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Post by Steve Landeau » 26 Jan 2004, 03:01

ralph kelley wrote: remember that we are still playing around with small boats as a hobby. It is just a nice hobby that should not be more complicated than need be to achieve the goals of the class members.
Ralph Kelley
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With all due respect, we don't want to start thinking this is a hobby when we think of rules and enforcement. Sailing the schooner fleet is a hobby. I take IOM racing more serious than my Cal 25 in class. When you are working in the garage, by all means think of it as a hobby, but once the preparatory signal sounds, we should all be thinking about serious racing.
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Re: Corrector weights

Post by Steve Landeau » 26 Jan 2004, 03:06

Ken Dobbie wrote:As a IOM measurer I insist that corrector weights if required be securely affixed to the hull and by that I mean securely and not wedged under a servo or attached by other means such as velcro.


I use a proforma of my own design to record the weight of hull, fin and each rig, the correctors and any ballast added to the #2 and 3 rigs and give a copy to the owner.
Regards

Ken
Ken, and others, as an IOM measurer, we are not required to check the weight anymore. This is entirely up to the event staff.

Good stuff as a builder! If you are selling turnkey boats, this is a fantastic addition for your customers. Just selling finished hulls, it would be tough to estimate corrector.
Last edited by Steve Landeau on 26 Jan 2004, 03:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Corrector Weights

Post by Ken Dobbie » 26 Jan 2004, 03:08

My concern with having corrector weights other than permanently fixed is that if they can be readily removed, ie velcro, they could be removed, forgotten and not replaced before an event or alternatively, contrary to the rules, moved during an event. My contention is that if the weight and position of the correctors is not required to be stated on the certificate or specified in the class rule then the correctors should be positioned at the measurement stage and remain permanently fixed until an official re-weigh determines otherwise.

Likewise batteries cannot be used to maintain legal weight following rig changes as this practice could also be subject to error, unintentional or otherwise. Boats should be event weighed with the lightest set of batteries to be used during the event.

Corrector weights are defined in the Equipment Rules of Sailing as weights installed in accordance with class rules to correct deficiency in weight or distribution. Full size one design class rules normally require placement on the underside of the deck or within a specified distance of this to prevent an advantage from positioning at the lowest point in the hull. The IOM rule should be amended to specify placement and means of attachment which is an omission highlighted by this discussion.

Regards


Ken

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Re: Corrector Weights

Post by Chairman » 26 Jan 2004, 13:03

Ken Dobbie wrote:... if the weight and position of the correctors is not required to be stated on the certificate ...
Recording this kind of detail on the certificate is something that is common in full-size, I understand, and for good reasons. Do we want to go down this route for the IOM class?
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Post by Chairman » 26 Jan 2004, 13:13

IOM class rules wrote:C.7.3 ADDED WEIGHTS(a) Weights may be positioned in and/or on a mast spar below the lower point. (b) Such weights may be removed or added at any time subject to C.4.1 and C.4.2.
There was a potential conflict between E.4.7 (you can't move or change ballast) and the fact that an IOM rig typically has weights added to the #2 and #3 rigs and that these rigs can be changed during an event (ie you were changing ballast). This was fixed in latest class rules by defining these rig weights to be "added weights" and thus they are not to be regarded as ballast.
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Post by Chairman » 26 Jan 2004, 13:26

One of the reasons to be interested in what the rules say about the movement of weight in the IOM is that, as Steve and others have noted, in light airs it might be an advantage to have the boat trimmed nose-down and the transom lifted out of the water, while in heavy airs the reverse might be better. I think that an enterprising sailor would now know that he can neither move hull corrector weight nor change battery weight or position during an event.

But what about immediately prior to an event, when it becomes clear that the boat, set up from last weekend, is optimised for heavy weather, while in an hour's time today's event will be in light winds? I imagine that an enterprising sailor will, within an hour, be able to re-fix his corrector weights firmly in the bows, and will also be able to fix his battery in position in the bows if he has previously anticipated this need. Both actions seem, to my unofficial eye, to be legal. The question is, should the class rules continue to permit this?
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Post by Roy Thompson » 26 Jan 2004, 17:38

While batteries are, in practical terms, inside ballast, they are really part of the RC control system, not ballast per se. As such, the Rules do not currently specify that batteries can not be located at different parts of the hull to match different wind and water conditions. (In at least one USA class I am familiar with, it is common practice to have batteries in either the central hull area in normal wind conditions, or in high wind conditions, aft near the transom.)
I beg to differ. Batteries are control equipment (IOM class rule D2.4.a.4)and with that they may only be replaced in a similar place and with a similar wt to the originals during an event (App E 4.7.b). This is clear in the rules. Anyone moving a battery pack more than a few centimeters after event measurement would in my opinion be breaking the rules.

As for as Lesters last comment, I guess if there's no event measurement (as per your average club or even regional race) then, yes, you may well be able to change wts around. Is this OK? I really don't think we need to start imposing all the rules (IOM and AppE) at club level even though it's the best place to start - it would only put people off.
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Ken Dobbie
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Post by Ken Dobbie » 27 Jan 2004, 01:19

Steve Landeau wrote:-
Ken, and others, as an IOM measurer, we are not required to check the weight anymore. This is entirely up to the event staff
My club requires that the measurer undertake event measurement preparatory for the first club competition at the same time as fundamental measurement. This ensures that weight and all those other items not checked at fundamental measurement are in accordance with the class rules.

The Chairman wrote:-
Recording this kind of detail on the certificate is something that is common in full-size, I understand, and for good reasons. Do we want to go down this route for the IOM class?
Why should we be any different? Weight is an important factor in measurement, distribution of weight can also affect performance. The class rules are incomplete in this matter (see my previous post quoting the ERS) and should as a minimum cover the placement and fixing of corrector weights.

Regards


Ken

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Post by ralph kelley » 27 Jan 2004, 01:45

Ropy:

I think we agree on that batteries are part of the RC system and are not considered "ballast".

I stand corrected in that E requires any batteries can only be replaced with similar items, in close proximityto any prior location. Your reference to E.4.7.b is correct. The verification of this item will be hard to monitor anc verify, but that is what E states.

There is no restriction as to locating the batteries anywhere in the hull -- just a restriction on moving them during an event. So it would be possible to have a couple locations for the battery pack, the choice being made prior to the start of the event.

A question then comes up as to "added weights" in the Rules, section C.7.3.a. Since C.7.3.a requires any extra weight be (1) attached to the mast spar and (2) be below the lower band, how does one address lighter rigs? Of course if your boat is somewhat over 4 kg, there is no problem, but for a boat that is at or near minimum, one cannot use a heavy battery for extra weight (as discussed above), or cannot use a lot of lead shot inside the mast (since it cannot be verified as to being below the band. Does not leave too many options.

I guess a case can be made that a heavy counterweight might be acceptable to bring a yacht up to minimum since there are no restrictions on them.

Maybe we should look at this point in the Rules the next time we have an update. The current Rule wording suggests the drafters of the Rules expected the "added weight" to be as low as practical and I cannot believe than anyone would like to put this extra weight high. It seems to me that no competitor will get any advantage by adding any "added weights" anywhere in the boat (as opposed to the spar location). So I would think that we can get to the bottom line that the boat should be at 4 kg, as sailed (Rules C.4.2), without any unnecessary further stipulations.

Ralph

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Post by Chairman » 27 Jan 2004, 11:19

VCmeasurement wrote:Anyone moving a battery pack more than a few centimeters after event measurement would in my opinion be breaking the rules. [...] Iguess if there's no event measurement (as per your average club or even regional race) then, yes, you may well be able to change wts around. Is this OK?
Erm, not OK really. I don't think it matters whether there is event measurement or not. What matters is that the configuration you have for your boat at the preparatory signal for your first race of an event is the configuration you must thereafter keep for the remainder of the event. Can't change battery size or placement, can't move corrector weights, can't change the rudder or fin, can't use a different jib if the wind changes, and so on. (There are some items of the configuration that can change. You can move or change the jib counterweight, in my unofficial opinion, so long as the boat weight does not fall below 4 kg.)
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Post by Roy Thompson » 27 Jan 2004, 16:25

OK, lets stick with a case where there is event measurement and later you shift batteries around before the start of the first regata. I think it's wrong because the event 'starts' when? At the preparatory signal of the first race? When you 'sign in' and get your boat measured etc? Is the 'start' of an event officially defined anywhere - I don't know, but once a boat is event measured and you sign in etc... IMHO, you are in the event and the event has started even though the first race for you hasn't necessarily started.
Imagine it's a big event and there are multiple fleets, and you're in one of the later fleets. Is it fair that you have the opportunity to change ballast around just before your race when maybe 15 or 30 others have already finished their first race and therefore can't now change their ballast position because they've already 'started' the event? I really don't think so. The event starts at the same time for everyone.
Or imagine if the boat is put into the tank and passes the hull and keel depth limit checks as OK but absolutely on the limits and then you start moving stuff around after that, then you may well (almost definitely since this is the reason to move wts around) change the floatation line and with it the max depth of hull/keel. I think the spirit of the rule is to avoid any changing wts around at any time during an event, and certainly not after event measurement even if it's not expressely stated..
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Post by Steve Landeau » 27 Jan 2004, 17:43

Chairman wrote: You can move or change the jib counterweight, in my unofficial opinion, so long as the boat weight does not fall below 4 kg.)
Yes, Lester. After you pointed out Appendix E (I've read it many times before, but not in a while) I decided to brush up on that section. As stated in E4.7(c) "the position of rig counterbalance weights may be adjusted". Trying to "know" all the rules is a never ending process!
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Post by Steve Landeau » 27 Jan 2004, 17:52

VCmeasurement wrote: I think it's wrong because the event 'starts' when? At the preparatory signal of the first race? When you 'sign in' and get your boat measured etc? Is the 'start' of an event officially defined anywhere -
As defined in the RRS: A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committe signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment. E4.7 modfies rule 51. which is in part 4, which normally only applies to boats while racing, but E4.7 restricts movement of ballast during an event. "Event" is defined in E1.1 as consisting of one or more races.
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