IOM in ISAF

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Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 229
Joined: 04 Nov 2004, 15:11
Location: ESP 50

IOM in ISAF

Post by Alfonso » 07 Aug 2009, 12:59

Dear owners,

As you would have seen we have already send the application form to join ISAF. As Barry has already explained in the official communication we will only join ISAF if the class decide so in the next Special Meeting of the World Council that will be called soon, but we had to give that step, among other reasons, in order to get formal information of the conditions of the incorporation of IOMICA into ISAF.

I open this thread in order to try to help to clarify any doubt about the issue and also to get your ideas that we can bring them up in the future dialog with ISAF.

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 10 Aug 2009, 19:53

Having recently investigated arguments for and against joining ISAF, Naviga, and standing independently, I feel that joining ISAF gives IOMICA more benefits and fewer liabilities than the other 2 options.

Positive points are:
input on our rules
(probably) representation on whatever RSD mutates into (possibly a radio sailing committee)
access to Judges and Umpires
access to formal appeals
insurance programs
allows skippers that compete in other ISAF classes to compete in our championship races
ISAF told me that our application fee would be waived
Depending upon what happens to the $$ in RSD's account, we may not have to pay the annual fee for quite some time.

Negative points are:
a per boat fee for new hulls of 0.4% of the cost of the hull for new boats only - existing hulls (including those that change owners) are exempt
someone other than IOMICA has the final say on the wording of our rules - not sure who that will be given the present state of flux in RSD

IMHO, the positive points far outweigh the negatives. Naviga, although popular in Eastern Europe, does not offer sufficient benefit to consider such a radical shift in membership. Going it alone, although perhaps more personally satisfying, involves too much administrative work to duplicate what ISAF offers.
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
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Location: ESP 50

Post by Alfonso » 10 Aug 2009, 23:45

Bruce wrote:a per boat fee for new hulls of 0.4% of the cost of the hull for new boats only - existing hulls (including those that change owners) are exempt
ISAF has just confirmed me that the fee per boat will be 5,20 GBP, and as Bruce has said only new boats after the first of January 2010 will have to pay.

Ken Dobbie
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania. AUS950

Post by Ken Dobbie » 10 Aug 2009, 23:52

Bruce

At what cost for your positives?

We will reach a point in the future where we will run out of NCA's who are prepared to gamble on conducting a Continental or World championship given the cost of running it to current ISAF requirements. In my opinion IOMICA should be talking to ISAF with the view to exploring a relaxation of these requirements in respect to radio sailing.

There are a number of other factors impacting on individual NCA's and their costs and the costs to their members in affiliating to their Member National Authority. As I write a cheque for my full size yacht club membership I ponder on how many of our 1000 radio sailors will be prepared to pay the additional mandatory annual membership to Yachting Australia,charged through their club, of $44.00. Yes, I know that this membership is optional in many countries but IOMICA should be supporting all of its member NCA's by taking into account all relevant factors.

IOMICA should be asking its NCA's to provide details of what needs to be put before ISAF. I am yet to see anything even remotely representing negotiations to achieve an outcome where our sport will ultimately benefit.

For its part, the Australian Radio Yachting Association (Inc), acting as the NCA for Australia, will be putting its concerns to the Executive of IOMICA in the hope that they will accept that there is a bigger picture.

Hiljoball
Posts: 271
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Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Post by Hiljoball » 11 Aug 2009, 00:30

Bruce Andersen wrote:
Negative points are:
a per boat fee for new hulls of 0.4% of the cost of the hull for new boats only.
I scratch build my own hulls. The cost is under CAN$100 for balsa, glass cloth and resin and paint and some lead etc. So at 0.4%, my fee should be around CAN $0.40 or approx.GB 20 pence. Given that the fee structure is a formula, why do I have to pay a flat fee based on the cost of a commercial hull?

John
Last edited by Hiljoball on 11 Aug 2009, 01:41, edited 1 time in total.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 11 Aug 2009, 01:19

Hi Ken

I appreciate your (and AUS's) concern, but as you might expect, I'm out of the loop on this issue. The comments posted below came from my work on this issue prior to the ballot re-count and in no way represent anything official from IOMICA EXEC. I am not included in their discussions on this or any other topics.

At the AGM in Barbados, upon passage of the resolution allowing the EXEC to explore the possibility of ISAF membership, I told everyone at the meeting that everyone in IOMICA would be presented with the facts and have an open discussion prior to any action. Not sure what the tight time table for membership application has to do with open discussions, but I'm no longer in a position to affect this process.

On the issue of costs, I was assured by ISAF that the application fee would be waived.

The annual fee membership fee (for IOMICA, not it's member NCA's) was estimated in the 100-200 range. This may be payable (for a long time) out of the IOMICA bank account, which presently is ~10K. Additionally, RSD has about 20K (if I recall correctly) in its coffers. Some have suggested transferring some percentage of it back to the class, some have suggested refunding it to each national authority, some have suggested keeping some or all of it in the hands of whatever RSD becomes.

If the RSD money stays in radio-sailing, that too could offset the minimal annual fee.

This leaves only the per hull charge. John - if you build you own and it cost you $100, you would owe ISAF 40 cents or so for the sticker. The tax is based on what the hull cost you, not what the average commercial price is.

All the ISAF literature indicates the per hull charge is based upon the hull's cost - not sure where Alphonso got his fixed cost information.

On the issue of making radio sailing championships more affordable, we could either not join ISAF, thus removing the expensive requirement of an international jury, or we could work with them to change the existing Judge/Umpire/Jury requirements to somehow make it more economic.

I think a lot can be done from within ISAF to help solve this issue as well as the issue of Judges/Umpires/Juries that are familiar and competent to work radio sailing events, but that requires becoming a part of ISAF.

If IOMICA joins, and RSD is re-incarnated into something like a radio sailing committee charged with oversight of R/C issues we will get somewhere.

Not sure what to say about getting out from under the fees charged radio sailors by Yachting Australia. Perhaps whatever RSD mutates into could suggest some sort of alternative means for radio sailors to connect with ISAF rather than through their MNA that might shield them from the significantly higher costs of a large boat organization.
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 11 Aug 2009, 02:00

I'm trying to understand how this process works--does IOMICA have the ability to negotiate the terms of its affiliation with ISAF or does IOMICA have to first join ISAF and later try to negotiate changes?

It would seem to me that we really need to try to solve the cost problems of National and Continental championships by changing the ISAF requirements for r/c sailboats. It would also be good if we could do something to address the concerns of Australia and GBR.

Just not sure how we go about doing any of this...It does, however, feel a little rushed. Is there any downside to waiting for the next window?

Ken Dobbie
Posts: 173
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 21:01
Location: Hobart, Tasmania. AUS950

Post by Ken Dobbie » 11 Aug 2009, 02:05

Bruce Anderson wrote:
At the AGM in Barbados, upon passage of the resolution allowing the EXEC to explore the possibility of ISAF membership, I told everyone at the meeting that everyone in IOMICA would be presented with the facts and have an open discussion prior to any action. Not sure what the tight time table for membership application has to do with open discussions, but I'm no longer in a position to affect this process.
The current Executive have apparently determined that consultation with the membership is not high on their list of priorities given the timetable they have set themselves to achieve a result.

Barry Fox CAN262
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Sail number: CAN 46
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Design: V8
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 11 Aug 2009, 02:42

Ken,

Based on our email conversation (that I consider offline and will not re-post here) your comment about not engaging anyone is fairly out of line.

If everyone will read all the words in the communications you have received so far you will see that we have to option to withdraw our application at anytime.

Everyone,

I've had some involvement in other Regional/National/International organizations. For any of those (I believe they would rival ISAF and its hierarchy for size) you need to have a seat at the table in order to bring change about.

For me it seems if we want to have some influence on the number of Judges/Umpires needed for large events and what qualifications they need to have, then that will have a lot better chance of happening from within.

To want everything to change before we would join would, to me, mean we will never join. why would any organization change its ways based on the demands of people standing on the street corner. That is a bit overboard but . . .

I think you will see that we end up with a flat fee for our boats. At what point is the hull considered to be a hull? When it is fresh out of the mould? When it is rigged to sail? What process is used to verify your declared cost? Labour costs - What's your assigned labour rate for your construction work?

You will have to pardon that my user ID here carries my position title but these are my personal views and not necessarily those of the Executive. I could think about setting up another ID so that I could post my personal stuff separately but that would just confuse me so I'll have to go with my disclaimer.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Ken Dobbie
Posts: 173
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Post by Ken Dobbie » 11 Aug 2009, 02:58

Barry Fox wrote:
Based on our email conversation (that I consider offline and will not re-post here) your comment about not engaging anyone is fairly out of line.

If everyone will read all the words in the communications you have received so far you will see that we have to option to withdraw our application at anytime.
You and I must agree to disagree. I do not retract my statement that the Executive acted inappropriately in making an application for affiliation without the approval of the membership.

Whether or not the application can be withdrawn is not an issue.

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 11 Aug 2009, 03:51

We will.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 11 Aug 2009, 05:35

Barry

Not to nitpick, but the per boat fee is defined in the "ISAF International and Recognized Class Entry Guidelines" and is clearly not fixed per hull, but instead is determined to be 0.4% of the price of the boat (less sails) in GBP, unless a different arrangement has been negotiated as a condition of the application.

Perhaps Alphonso could share with the rest of the class what is going on?

I have to agree with Ken on this one - I'm rather embarrassed to have spearheaded this ISAF issue, promising the membership full disclosure along the way, and have it turn out looking pretty secretive with essentially no input or discussion from the general membership.
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 11 Aug 2009, 05:54

I guess the right thing to do is for us to withdraw it today. I haven't discussed that with the rest of the Exec members so that is just my frustrated way of dealing with it.

A day or two before the deadline to submit we received a note saying that we should but had to get it done right now. So we worked on that and thought the explanation we gave would have been fairly clear.

Given the time zones we cross to get any discussion done about how to proceed and even make a decision at the Exec team level as to what to do put us actually a number of hours past the deadline.

So I guess the thing to do is to tell ISAF that we can't do anything until someone other than an Exec member but a WC member decides that we should proceed and then we will move.

We have lots of other work to do to keep the organization running so maybe we should channel our volunteer energy in that direction instead and wait for the world to come to us.

This is worse that the condo association I sit on.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

RoyL
Posts: 705
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Post by RoyL » 11 Aug 2009, 06:13

Still looking for an explanation of the pros and cons of asking for ISAF membership now or waiting a year...

And if there was a note from ISAF requesting an immediate application from IOMICA, could it perhaps be made available to the membership as part of any discussion?

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 11 Aug 2009, 07:17

I'll stand by my last posting for now. I have posted a note to my fellow Exec members stating my thoughts so someone of them can decide what we should do.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

jandejmo
Posts: 64
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Post by jandejmo » 11 Aug 2009, 11:06

I do not want to get involved in if and when IMOICA should apply for ISAF International Class status for the One Metre class. I would just like to put forward that I think the conditions for affiliation are known at this point. Basically the same as for any class joining ISAF.


Application Fee

GBP1000. Will be waived for the One Metre as an ISAF-RSD class.

Annual Membership Fee

GBP 165.

Boat Fee

A flat one time fee in the order of GBP 5 for new boats. The guideline being â€

Brig North
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Post by Brig North » 12 Aug 2009, 00:35

I believe I was the last person to comment on the costs to hold a WC, and the point of my post was that the cost/risk to the organizers is huge. From what little I know, the judges are a big part of the expense.

So what to do? I agree wholeheartedly that it's better to work from the inside than out. If ISAF is giving us a free pass now on the entry fee, the annual expense going forward is nominal, the per boat tax is 5 GBP per boat (that's $8.24 US at current exchange rates -- the cost of a 24 pack of Cokes), AND we get a seat at the table, it's my belief that the class leadership should jump on it.

The cost of waiting is the possibility that ISAF won't continue to waive the fee to join. If we have $16,000 US in the bank, then ten percent of that is not too, too much. But why wait? It sure appears to me that the benefit of being part of the discussion as it pertains to model boats outweighs the negatives.

Brig North

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
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Post by Alfonso » 12 Aug 2009, 01:26

RoyL wrote:Still looking for an explanation of the pros and cons of asking for ISAF membership now or waiting a year...
Sorry Roy but my access to internet is very limited during August. Let me try to answer your question. When we decide to apply for ISAF recognition (beginning of August) the last news we had from ISAF RSD were not very promising, there were not a single nomination for any position of the PC and if the situation remains like that by the end of August the ISAF RSD will be automatically disbanded.

As you can imagine if IOMICA is trapped in that situation we will enter in a limbo status which can bring us some problems because we wouldn’t be an ISAF RSD Class nor an ISAF International Class.

Also as Barry has already explained we haven’t taken any decision about ISAF yet. Owners will take their decision in the next Special Meeting. We just did what we thought it was the best option for the class. Of course we would have liked to be in a different situation, but in this case the circumstances of ISAF RSD escape our control.

JThompson
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Post by JThompson » 12 Aug 2009, 04:53

Is there a reason that the Exec has chosen to act on ISAF membership without keeping the general membership up to date on the progress? Is it to much to ask that when the Exec makes a critical decision on the future of the class that they at least ANNOUNCE said decision to the class?

@ Barry - I suggest you get a thicker skin if you intend to serve out the duration of your term. People question your actions and you come off sounding like you want to take your ball and go home.

Jim
Jim Thompson
IOM - USA 370 - Ericca

Barry Fox CAN262
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 12 Aug 2009, 05:34

In a basic manner, the only decision that is made is exactly what was decided previously. That is that the owners will get the opportunity to vote prior to ISAF having a chance to make a final decision.

I can't understand why that isn't clear.

As far as the thickness of my skin is concerned, it is really none of your business as to what its condition is. And that will remain in effect.

In the meantime I'll work on stuff that has been ignored for years and nobody noticed.

Last post from me until after it is done.
Barry Fox
CAN 46
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 12 Aug 2009, 06:09

In all fairness and based upon a number of years on an EXEC that did not utilize the secretary, I think Barry is doing a fine job of communicating what the EXEC decides with the general membership. These are not things he is coming up with himself but reflect the business of the entire EXEC, so please don't kill the messenger.

There is no excuse (other than poor planning) for having a last minute rush on the ISAF issue. The ISAF timeline has been available for anyone to see for a number of months and the application deadline should not come as a surprise.

That being said, what is the actual status of the ISAF application?
Do they have it?
Is it complete?
Has it been withdrawn?
Is Alphonso going to share any of this with the general membership of the class?

As I've said in the past, I think ISAF membership will be a good thing for many reasons. It would be a shame to kill this process simply because Alphonso chose not follow the desires of the class or to inform the class of his intentions.
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
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Post by Alfonso » 12 Aug 2009, 08:36

This is amazing, the Exec has not taken any decision about ISAF, we just did what the owners asked us to do in the last AGM and we have done it quickly. Now the problem is that we are too fast?

Don’t you see that we are in the best possible situation? Now the application is in ISAF hands so if the owners decide to go ahead we will affiliate ISAF in the next possible opportunity but if we decide the opposite we will withdraw the application and nothing would have happened. Also we have made the communication ASAP. So I think we should turn the debate in other more positive direction.
Bruce wrote:That being said, what is the actual status of the ISAF application?
Do they have it?
Is it complete?
Has it been withdrawn?
Is Alphonso going to share any of this with the general membership of the class?
I have already answered questions 1, 2 and 4. The application is not completed yet, although the most important thing which is the application form has already been send as you could have seen in the web. Now we have to send some documents which the Exec is already working on them and in others we will need the help of some NCAs.

Regarding the last question, I really do not understand the purpose of the question, if you are already looking for some electoral advantage just take it easy, look for another occasion because owners are not stupid and they can see that we have worked diligently. Now if we are in the same boat, and I think we are, just take your oar and row in the same direction than the rest of the crew.

Marko Majic
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Post by Marko Majic » 12 Aug 2009, 16:55

Jim:

In the past, the major obstacle to further pursuing ISAF affiliation (and very eloquently championed by some NCAs) was that it would be irresponsible to pursue any affiliation without full and complete disclosure of all costs, fixed and variable, associated with such a course. I believe, in their correspondence, it was likened to buying a house without knowing what the price is, what's included and what the borrowing terms would be.

Can't fault that logic...

A few months ago I also remember posting on the USA-NCA site a rather longish "opinion post" in which I stated the obvious - which is that no self-respecting organization will (or can) provide you all the details of affiliation without knowing more about you - it's a process...

At the most recent AGM, the owners decided that there's interest in joining ISAF and we need answers to costs and terms related questions.

Take those three things together and the inescapable conclusion is that the current Exec has acted quickly and decisively in preparing the application and started the (negotiating?) process with the stated intent on fixing the exact terms and conditions of the affiliation which can then be presented to the ownership at the next AGM to decide whether to accept or reject.

Seems (to me) like a very reasonable and expeditious course of action! What else would you have them do? Keep coming back to the ownership with the same question and without any additional information to present? I know that words like "quickly", "decisively" and "expeditious" are unfamiliar to some in the radio sailing community which, I imagine, is the major cause of the negative comments I've seen here but, IMHO, those are NOT bad things (once you get used to them, I guess :lol: )...

We've already sawed off the branch we've been sitting on for these many years by voting ISAF-RSD PC as "invalid" and "unconstitutional". Been a few months now since then but I've not heard of anyone running to replace them (although, to be fair, there's still one or two more weeks until the deadline so - who knows? - someone qualified MAY turned up). Now let's all get stuck in perpetual loop of paralysis with our approach to ISAF affiliation and we might as well forget about any international events next year or in the future...

I'd suggest that we give these guys some room to operate and see what they come up with... We are NOT going to become an "ISAF class" overnight and without getting a chance to vote on it - that's not how ISAF operates (I presume). They are going through the process in order to gather all the required information for us to make an informed decision when that time comes.

Or I could be wrong and they are, in fact, ISAF agents who had infiltrated our class after years of posing as respectable IOM owners and are tasked with hijacking our class and delivering it to their cronies in London. Anything's possible, I guess... :lol:


Marko
Marko Majic
CAN 16

RoyL
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Post by RoyL » 12 Aug 2009, 17:31

I guess I'm still a little unclear about what is going on here. If I read Marko's post correctly, he is suggesting that the current IOMICA Executive is in the process of negotiating terms and conditions for our possible direct affiliation with ISAF.

Looking at the posts from Jan, Barry and Alfonso, on the other hand I get the sense that we are preparing an application for IOMICA to join ISAF with the terms of our affiliation being set by ISAF. It also seems that if we don't sign on now, because of the problem with RSD, we will be somehow automatically disenfranchised by ISAF.

Two very different procedures. From years of negotiating agreements, I have found that if you make a deal first, and then try to obtain additional terms and conditions you are usually in a much weaker position. Sort of like buying a house, agreeing on the price, signing the contract, and then asking the seller to throw in the furniture and appliances. Hardly ever a successful tactic. Also, if you are negotiating with a gun to your head, it usually it isn't much of a negotiation!

As a general matter, I think we need to try to obtain from ISAF some relief on registration fees for home built boats and judges and juries at major radio sailing events, clarification on how our rules and regulations will be interpreted and administered by ISAF and a method whereby national r/c authorities and their members can affiliate with ISAF through IOMICA. I also think we need feedback from the various NCA's on their concerns and issues regarding affiliation with ISAF. Is any of this possible? Or are we in a "my way or the highway" situation with ISAF?

Finally, is there a better sense of the timing of this process? Doesn't seem like very much time left before the NCA's will have to start polling their members in order to make a decision here.

Oh, and one more thing. This problem created by RSD is not the fault of IOMICA. Doesn't seem right that IOMICA is being penalized.

Bruce Andersen
USA NCA Officer
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 12 Aug 2009, 18:41

Alphonso, please don't take my comments as some sort of campaigning ploy. When you stand for re-election in 2010 (as you have said you would), the candidates can start campaigning.

"...the Exec has not taken any decision about ISAF, we just did what the owners asked us to do in the last AGM and we have done it quickly. Now the problem is that we are too fast?"

By submitting an application without discussing it with the membership, the EXEC has made a decision - to proceed independent of the class. If you recall, the membership voted to "to allow IOMICA EXEC to enter into discussions with ISAF regarding membership." These data were to be shared and discussed with the membership.

I realize that the membership of the class is not stupid but neither are we clairvoyant: without communication from the EXEC, no one can "...see that we have worked diligently...". All we saw was the announcement that application had been made.

As we say "Nice idea, bad execution". I suggest keeping the membership in the decision loop - secrecy breeds contempt.
Bruce Andersen - USA 16

jandejmo
Posts: 64
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Post by jandejmo » 12 Aug 2009, 19:30

Just a short comment on the metaphor of "Buying a house".

Joining a sports organisation is in my view a slightly different undertaking.

The people living in the "house" do not intend to hand it over, but would very much like to see others moving in too. For this purpose they have created some "moving in" and "living in the house" rules. So negotiating when joining an organisation like ISAF, then you are in fact negotiating with its members on conditions they have agreed on.

Things like a different fee for amateur built boats could be a subject for negotiation as the fee is subject to negotiation based on the guideline in the regulation. But I don't think it would successful as experience has shown that the border between an amateur built and a professionally built boat can be very difficult to establish.

Things like juries and judges at international events are controlled by the Racing Rules and therefore have to be dealt with through submissions. Which IOMICA can submit once the One Metre is adopted as an ISAF Class.

Jan Dejmo

Roy648
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Post by Roy648 » 13 Aug 2009, 02:14

Just a simple minded overview of the current situation/debate.

IOMICA presses ahead with joining ISAF in the current timeframe and is subsequently unable negotiate concessions in respect to costs and officials. As a result NCAs in some countries respond that they no longer consider the cost / benefits are worthwhile and resign from IOMICA.

IOMICA is then left with representation in only 2 continents and no longer qualifies as an international class. OUCH.

Maybe, just maybe, it is worth while knowing what we are letting ourselves in for to preclude such an embarrassment.
Last edited by Roy648 on 13 Aug 2009, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
Roy Granich

Robert Grubisa
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Post by Robert Grubisa » 13 Aug 2009, 11:19

RoyL wrote: As a general matter, I think we need to try to obtain from ISAF some relief on registration fees for home built boats and judges and juries at major radio sailing events, clarification on how our rules and regulations will be interpreted and administered by ISAF and a method whereby national r/c authorities and their members can affiliate with ISAF through IOMICA. I also think we need feedback from the various NCA's on their concerns and issues regarding affiliation with ISAF. Is any of this possible? Or are we in a "my way or the highway" situation with ISAF?

Finally, is there a better sense of the timing of this process? Doesn't seem like very much time left before the NCA's will have to start polling their members in order to make a decision here.

I think that the first and most important question is:

Do we (IOM RC sailors) wants to be part of the overall world of sailing?

If yes, then it is pretty reasonable to be part of the International Sailing Federation because their mission is to be worldwide authority for sailing. They have over 100 member nations, (MNAs) who are responsible for the decision making process that governs the sailing world. Also, we will have some rights, the most important one is to make submission. Very important thing is that we have the right to use RRS and our Appendix E.

If the answer is NOt, because we are so unique that already established worldwide procedures for measurements, race management, umpiring, class rule interpretations, approval of class rule changes, national and international representation of the class are something that we don't want to accept then affiliation to the ISAF will be wrong decision.


My personal answer is well known. I think that RC sailing deserve the right to be a part of sailing world and I fully support the paper made by IOM ICA Exec as presented on the website.

So far, I have found that only Roy Langbord clearly stated what he thinks that may be a problem with our possible direct affiliation to the ISAF, so I will try to give some personal answer according to my knowledge:


1. Relief on registration fees for home built boats

Registration fee, according to the ISAF Regulation regulation 26.3(c) is connected to the "average retail price of a complete new boat without sails". If cost of the material is 20 USD, this doesn't means that the price of complete boat is 20 USD. It may be in the range of 1000 USD. Honestly, I don't see how ISAF will change his Regulations because of "home built boats".

2. Judges and juries at major radio sailing events

According to the Appendix N of the RRS (N.1.3), the minimum number of Jury members is five. Majority of them shall be International Judges i.e. 3. No more than two members (three, in group M, N and Q) shall be from the same national authority. So, what you want to discuss with ISAF? That you need only one IJ? Or somebody thinks that they are not required at all?

IOM ICA has their own document http://www.iomclass.org/events/Appendix ... 005Feb.pdf and it is subject to the implementation in Sailing Instructions. The number of umpires (they don't need to be IJ !) is stated as "at least one umpire for every four boats racing".
This is done by the Class not by ISAF!!! The reason for that is to allow umpires to do their job correctly. The job of IOM ICA Events Subcommittee is to deal with it.

3. Clarification on how our rules and regulations will be interpreted and administered by ISAF

Currently, the international authority of the IOM Class is the ISAF RSD, not IOM ICA. In the future, if we decide so, the international authority will be ISAF again not IOM ICA. Class rule interpretation and class rules changes approval will be made by ISAF Technical Staff which is responsible for such job for other sailing classes as well. ISAF requirement is that class rules based on Standard Class Rule template and ERS. Basically, we have fulfilled both requirements. ISAF Technical will review our class rules and suggest necessary changes due to the ERS requirement, if necessary.

Role of the IOM ICA TSC and ISAF is described in:

http://www.iomclass.org/tech/IOMICA_TSC ... nction.pdf

Instead of ISAF RSD read ISAF. Please let me know if you see any problem with such position and what you want to negotiate with ISAF regarding the how our rules and regulations will be interpreted and administered by ISAF. If you want to achieve that ISAF Technical just rubber stamp the decisions of IOM ICA, my answer is that it is wrong and that we NEED qualified, technical expertise from body paid to to that for all sailing classes! They will do thier job i co-operation with IOM ICA Technical representative.

4. A method whereby national r/c authorities and their members can affiliate with ISAF through IOMICA.

It seems that this is the big issue for AUS, and it seems to me fo at least NZL, USA and RSA. First of all, take a look on present requirements.
According to the ISAF RSD Constitution clause 5.5 (iv) It shall be a continuing obligation of membership that any delegated national body shall maintain its affiliation with the Member National Authority. So, DMs must be affiliated somehow to the ISAF MNA. How it is currently achieved in AUS, NZL, USA or RSA, I don't know but I know that the requirement is here!

An ISAF affiliation will not change the One Metre sailors’ relation to their ISAF Member National Authorities. The Racing Rules of Sailing - 75.1: “To enter a race, a boat … shall be entered by a member of a club or other organization affiliated to an ISAF member national authority, such a club or organization, or a member of an ISAF member national authority.â€
Robert Grubisa

ole_peder
NOR NCA Officer
Posts: 140
Joined: 18 Nov 2003, 12:42
Location: NOR 44
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Post by ole_peder » 13 Aug 2009, 16:19

Here is how the situation looks like in Norway.

We have approximately 130 boats, wheras 29 is certificated. We have races approximately every second week in 5 places along the coastline. Norsk Modellseilforening which dates bact to 1904 is currently DM and have been DM since the 1920 when the international organisation was formed. NMS was in many years the only one organizing regattas for RC Yachts. at that time with 15-20 boats. In 2000 the IOM was introduced and since then we have grown.

Apart from NMS all new reqruitment is via ordinary sailing clubs with ordinary "big" boat sailors. I think this is the case both in Sweden and Denmark. We arrange Nordich championships and National championships in addition to a Scandinavian IOM Cup.

The cost of 5.2 GBP pr new boat after 2010 is nothing and should not be an argument against joining ISAF as an international Class.

In Norway becoming an international ISAF Class would make life so much easiere when promoting our belowed sport. In fact if IOMICA choose to not be an ISAF class the class will die in Norway.

We want to be a part of the ISAF sailing comunity as a every other class.

With regards to the cost and format of the continental and world championships there are a lot of factors that makes this expensive.
If we as a class has reasonable arguments to deviate from ISAF rules as they ar laid out today, I am sure we will be granted those changes in the future.
I also believe that with a recognition as an International ISAF Class it will be easier to attract sponsors to those events.
Ole Peder Bjørsom
Chairman NOR NCA

Alfonso
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 229
Joined: 04 Nov 2004, 15:11
Location: ESP 50

Post by Alfonso » 13 Aug 2009, 17:15

I do not want to repeat what others have said just I would like to highlight three ideas:

First, the process of applying to join ISAF doesn’t looks like a zoco where you bargain three International Juries instead of five or two members in the classes committee instead one and so one. ISAF means high level racing, standardization, regulation …, so there is no way to bargain. I think that Brig has expressed very well that the right approach is “it's better to work from the inside than outâ€

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