Summary from European Championships (Allocations)

Discuss class championship regulations, sailing instructions, umpiring, observing, scoring software, fleet racing systems, forthcoming international events, etc

Moderator: Rob Walsh

Tito Llana
Posts: 45
Joined: 15 Nov 2003, 01:00
Location: ESP 15

Summary from European Championships (Allocations)

Post by Tito Llana » 09 Feb 2004, 10:12

Stage 1: No Member NCA shall have an allocation of more than 8 places. M. Roberts 1, FRA* 8, MLT* 2, CRO 5, GBR 8, NOR* 2, DEN 4, GER 8, POR 2, ESP 8, IRL* 2, FIN 2, ITA* 8 (* Provided they obtain recognition). IOMICA EC may allocate guest places to European competitors to a maximum of 10, where no more than 2 places shall be allocated to any one European country (this is for European countries which do not have a recognised NCA.)

Stage 2: No European Member NCA shall have their allocation increased above 10 places. IOMICA may allocate guest places to non-European Member NCAs to a maximum of 12, where no more than 2 places shall be allocated to any one non-European Member NCA.

Stage 3: Non-European countries without a recognised NCA may be allocated one or possibly two places if any are available after allocation to all Member NCAs who want them.
Tito Llana

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Re: Summary from European Championships (Allocations)

Post by Chairman » 09 Feb 2004, 11:05

The Notice of Race, Championship Regulations, allocation of places, and so on, will all be uploaded to the IOM Web site later today. Thanks to Tito and his team for exceptionally hard work in getting these details sorted out.
VCevents wrote:Stage 1: No Member NCA shall have an allocation of more than 8 places. M. Roberts 1, FRA* 8, MLT* 2, CRO 5, GBR 8, NOR* 2, DEN 4, ...
Just to be clear on what an "allocation" is -- it is exactly that, an allocation, and not a confirmed place. For example, DEN has been allocated 4 places. It is possible that, when the entries come in, DEN only enters two sailors. It is also possible that DEN enters 6 sailors, in which case the 2 "extra" DEN sailors have to wait to hear if there are spare places after other countries have taken up their allocation.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Jeff Kay
IRL NCA Officer
Posts: 45
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 20:22
Location: IRL 43, IRL 87

Re: Summary from European Championships (Allocations)

Post by Jeff Kay » 10 Feb 2004, 22:59

Guys

Just wondering why so few spots for non Euro NCAs?

I understand there is a large level of interest from Aus/USA.

Jeff

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Re: Summary from European Championships (Allocations)

Post by Chairman » 11 Feb 2004, 08:49

Jeff Kay wrote:Just wondering why so few spots for non Euro NCAs?
Hi Jeff

The championship is, after all, the "European" championship.

I think you might have your quantifier inverted -- the question might be better phrased as "Why so many places for non-Euro NCAs?". The previous two or three Euro champs (correct me someone, if I'm wrong!) had provision for a maximum of 4 non-Euro places. We have expanded this considerably to around 12 -- a 300% increase. Potentially, non-Euro competitors could account for up to around 15% of the fleet. There are some european NCAs who are less than delighted with that.

As ever, there are conflicting demands upon a limited resource. We have tried to balance the interests of a variety of stakeholders:

-- Some Euro NCAs want only Euro competitors.
-- Some non-Euro NCAs want to enter competitors.
-- IOMICA wants to encourage other continental championships such as an "Americas Championship", an "Oceana Championship", and an "Asian Championship".

At the end, it seemed sensible to provide quite limited places for "the best" from the rest of the world to attend the Euro champs, and to give Euro competitors priority.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Brad Gibson
Posts: 35
Joined: 23 Nov 2003, 22:35
Location: GBR 42
Contact:

Post by Brad Gibson » 11 Feb 2004, 14:53

Hi Lester,
As a prospective competitor for the Euros 04, it does appear non-euro NCA's will be very lucky if they do get any entrants with the IOM class growth & popularity wordwide at present.

Can anyone tell me if the provision for 4 spots at previous championships were guarrantied allocations at stage 1 of entries, or in the middle of stage 2 with the wording MAY preceeding.

I do appreciate that euro NCA's wish to minimise non-euro entries but dont believe it is healthy for the class.
Nor would it be healthy to risk excluding Euro, America's or Asia's from an Oceania Championship (you get my point).


My thoughts would be:
Allow each non region NCA 1 spot for Entry at Stage 1 & have that fixed. Each non region NCA could send their #1 Ranked boat as representitive.

This would also allow non region NCA representitive's selected, the required time to make travel & accomodation arrangements.

May also add to the colour of the events ahead !
Just a thought

Brad Gibson
AUS 42

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 11 Feb 2004, 14:56

Why did it take so long to have that explained? Now I understand why there was no news at all. I can see that the wording was deliberately changed.
It was always my understanding that other sailors from other parts of the country welcomed and respected the willingness of a skipper from the other side of the world to want to come sail with you (general term). Obviously, this was not correct. Having said that, I would NEVER want to go to a regatta where I was not really welcome. Don't worry about me for spain anymore, I won't go even if you offer me a spot. I thought IOMICA was going to unite the world, not separate it......
P.S. for what it's worth, this was to be rather special for me, my sister was born there, and I haven't been back in near 30 years. Thanks IOMICA.
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Rob Davis
Posts: 58
Joined: 23 Nov 2003, 16:50
Sail number: USA 32
Club: TRYC
Design: Disco

NCA Size and Allocation of Places

Post by Rob Davis » 11 Feb 2004, 17:05

I believe the number of places allocated a country is based upon it's size. Nowhere have I seen how many skippers are represented by the NCA's who have joined the IOMICA. Can this also be addressed?

Rob
Rob Davis
USA 232

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Post by Chairman » 11 Feb 2004, 19:31

bgrcyachting wrote:It does appear non-euro NCA's will be very lucky if they do get any entrants
Hi Brad

Don't see how you got to that conclusion. Allocation is never going to satisfy everyone, but I hope it is clear that 12 places have been "reserved" for non-Euro competitors. There are various unavoidable unknowns surrounding that number, but I believe it is the clear intention of the Events Sub-Committee to provide for significant non-Euro entry. I am very confident that something close to this number will be allocated, in the end, to non-Euro competitors.
Can anyone tell me if the provision for 4 spots at previous championships were guarrantied allocations at stage 1 of entries, or in the middle of stage 2 with the wording MAY preceeding.
The best I can do is quote from previous regulations:
Previous RSD regulations wrote:Stage One. In which no DM shall have an allocation of more than 8 places. The initial allocation of places shall be:
(i) A personal place for the previous champion; this place shall not be counted in any DM’s total.
(ii) Two places to each DM.
(iii) One additional place for the host DM.
(iv) The RSD may allocate places to competitors pursuant to rule xxx, to a maximum of 4.
(v) The remaining places shall be allocated to DMs according to the finishing order of boats from the DM in the previous relevant championship.
I think this "guaranteed" nothing.
I do appreciate that euro NCA's wish to minimise non-euro entries but dont believe it is healthy for the class.
Agreed. Which is why the allowance was increased from 4 to 12. Also, if you'd care to review the regulations and allocation, a further 6 non-Euro places are allocated, if available, in stage 3 after Euro entries have been capped following stage 2.
My thoughts would be: Allow each non region NCA 1 spot for Entry at Stage 1 & have that fixed. Each non region NCA could send their #1 Ranked boat as representitive.
We are currently in a transitional period. In the past, RSD approved the IOM championships and allocated the places to the DMs. The number of DMs was known and relatively stable, and your approach would be able to work. Today, it is a new organisation, IOMICA, which does this work, and its membership, the NCAs, is an irregularly-increasing number. We are guessing at what the membership situation will be in six months' time. You can see the "*"s on the allocation in stage 1 as it is, and it is not possible to "fix" the unknown quite so easily.
This would also allow non region NCA representitive's selected, the required time to make travel & accomodation arrangements.
This is a problem for most competitors, regional or otherwise. Perhaps we should specify that entries close six months in advance?
Last edited by Chairman on 11 Feb 2004, 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Re: NCA Size and Allocation of Places

Post by Chairman » 11 Feb 2004, 19:40

Rob Davis wrote:I believe the number of places allocated a country is based upon it's size.
Hi Rob

Might be worth a glance at the recently-posted regulations and allocation.
Class championship regulations and allocation of places wrote:Stage one. The initial allocation of places shall be:
(i) A personal place for the previous champion; this place shall not be counted in any Member NCA’s total.
(ii) Two places to each European Member NCA.
(iii) Four additional places for the host NCA.
(iv) The EC may allocate guest places to European competitors pursuant to rule 7.3, to a maximum of 10, where no more than 2 places shall be allocated to any one European country, using the finishing order of boats from the country in the previous European championship.
(v) The remaining places shall be allocated to European Member NCAs according to the finishing order of boats from the European Member NCA in the previous European championship.
Similar arrangements apply to later stages, except for the part where there are any places left over after the non-Euro entries have been allocated, and here size becomes a small factor for Euro NCAs.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Brad Gibson
Posts: 35
Joined: 23 Nov 2003, 22:35
Location: GBR 42
Contact:

Post by Brad Gibson » 11 Feb 2004, 21:51

Thanks Lester for your reply!

I guess its now a wait & see appproach as to how many non-euros attend.

I wish i shared your vision that many will attend, as i believe that the entry will be close to max by the time we get a go in Stage 2 as i read it.

Six months would be something definately worth looking at for entry cut off i feel.

Did notice the * in stage 1.
From memory Australia were the first to apply & be granted NCA status so we were allowed our vote in Canada 03. :?


Cheers
Brad Gibson

Roy Thompson
Posts: 380
Joined: 15 Nov 2003, 10:50
Location: ESP 212
Contact:

Post by Roy Thompson » 11 Feb 2004, 21:54

Steve Landau wrote:It was always my understanding that other sailors from other parts of the country welcomed and respected the willingness of a skipper from the other side of the world to want to come sail with you (general term). Obviously, this was not correct. Having said that, I would NEVER want to go to a regatta where I was not really welcome. Don't worry about me for spain anymore, I won't go even if you offer me a spot. I thought IOMICA was going to unite the world, not separate it......
Steve, It's a shame you feel the way you do - and it's your loss as well as
ours. You must admit that 12 places for non-Europeans is better than 4,no? And that is despite pressure on the events sub-com. You are miss-reading the situation and your comments are only helping to create a bigger divide in the IOM global fleet - please think carefully. You will be welcomed to the Europeans like any other sailor from any other country (Euro or non, NCA or no).
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 12 Feb 2004, 03:16

Roy, and others, I sincerely apologize for responding so harshly. This was obviously my mis-interpretation. It appeared to me that Non-Europeans would get the leftovers if there were any at all, and if so would not have the time to make plans. It still looks like we lost our stage 1 opportunities though, correct? In the old regulations, my finish position in the last championship was to my benefit. It still bothers me that these formal regulations simply get changed at will though. I will print and fully read the regulations as they are now written tonight and read them more thoroughly so I can comment a bit more wisely.
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 12 Feb 2004, 07:02

VCmeasurement wrote: You must admit that 12 places for non-Europeans is better than 4,no? And that is despite pressure on the events sub-com. You are miss-reading the situation and your comments are only helping to create a bigger divide in the IOM global fleet - please think carefully. You will be welcomed to the Europeans like any other sailor from any other country (Euro or non, NCA or no).
OK, I've gone back and re-read the allocation procedure. It appears that I was more correct on my first post than I was in apologizing in my second. And no, 12 spots in latter stage 2 are not even close to as good as 4 spots in stage 1. Who are you trying to fool? It is clear that before the regulations were re-written, (explicitly to remove the rest of the world from stage 1), that outside skippers WERE being invited to your championship regatta. Now, it is quite clear that non-Europeans are getting your scraps. IF there's anything leftover once you've given 150+ offers to Europeans (No less than 15 countries, and no more than 10 spots each), then yes, we may come and fill a spot. This is HARDLY an invite. For one to claim that non-Europeans are still "invited" leaves me to believe that the authors think the rest of the world is full of idiots. Roy, my comments can only create divide if they are true. If they are true (and it sure looks like it), then I have no problem saying in plain English what really is going on behind closed doors. Those responsible for the current allocation regulations have done more damage to the IOM global relationship than my free speech rants will ever do! I know that many of you will not like to read what I have to say, but I am telling you, there are MANY skippers out there that support what I have to say. Stop being so selfish and do what's right for the IOM CLASS, not your territory!
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Post by Chairman » 12 Feb 2004, 10:50

Steve Landeau wrote:Who are you trying to fool? ... the regulations were re-written, (explicitly to remove the rest of the world from stage 1) ... non-Europeans are getting your scraps ... For one to claim that non-Europeans are still "invited" leaves me to believe that the authors think the rest of the world is full of idiots ... say[...] in plain English what really is going on behind closed doors ... Those responsible for the current allocation regulations have done more damage to the IOM global relationship ... being so selfish ... do what's right for the IOM CLASS, not your territory
Hi Steve

So, let me see if I've got this straight. You are accusing the IOMICA Events Sub-Committee and the Exec of:
  • providing untrue and false information and mis-representing the "real" situation
  • re-writing the regulations with the explicit purpose of trying to remove the rest of the world from the Euro champs
  • making provision for places to non-Euro entrants which have a lower status than the places allocated to Euro competitors
  • regarding everyone outside of Europe as persons unable to think for themselves and failing to treat them with appropriate care and consideration
  • not providing true and accurate accounts of the decisions that have been taken
  • causing wilful damage to the IOM class
  • furthering their own interests at the expense of others
  • furthering the interests of their own territory and failing to take proper account of what is right for the IOM class
These are quite serious allegations, and probably now require the attention of others.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Post by Chairman » 12 Feb 2004, 12:03

Steve Landeau wrote:I've gone back and re-read the allocation procedure. [...] IF there's anything leftover once you've given 150+ offers to Europeans (No less than 15 countries, and no more than 10 spots each)
Hi Steve

Worth a re- re-read, then. And possibly a quiet word with someone who actually knows what they are talking about, perhaps someone who has carried out the allocation process for real in previous events.

You'll notice the preamble to a stage says something like, "... in which no NCA's allocation shall exceed 8" in the case of stage 1. You will also notice (assuming you are reading the correct document, the "Allocation" one) that the actual allocations are mentioned. For example, the stage 1 allocation for DEN is 4. This is a number which does not exceed 8, but this does not mean that the allocation for DEN will therefore become 8 at the next opportunity. If you look at the next opportunity, stage 2, you should notice that DEN is in 12th and 14th position for two more places in stage 2. This doesn't then get them 10 places, which is the maximum contemplated in stage 2. It gets them 6 places at most.

You can see that the additional allocation to Euro NCAs at stage 2 is no more than a further 15 places. Now you will have noticed that the stage 1 allocation left 24 places "free" at least, and quite possibly more because of the "*" issues. So it is certain that at least 9 places shall be available for stage 2 allocation to non-Euro NCAs.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Jose Antonio Rodriguez
Posts: 7
Joined: 09 Dec 2003, 11:28
Location: ESP 163 - ESP 211
Contact:

Post by Jose Antonio Rodriguez » 12 Feb 2004, 18:05

Only one question:

This is for the Europeans or for the World Championiship???

What´s the number of places allocated for europenas in the USA Championiship?

All the people is welcomed in other regattas, but, in the EC, none non-european is prefered if one european like the place....

That´s my think..... and sorry for my bad expresion in english.

Jose Antonio Rodriguez
ESP 163

yorkke
Posts: 10
Joined: 12 Feb 2004, 19:17
Location: AUS 24

Europeans

Post by yorkke » 12 Feb 2004, 19:22

I think that all regatta's it being in any nation or region be open to people from out side that area.
Just imagine the US masters Golf being American only.
And I could be wrong aren't the regatta's open in full size sailing.

Keags
Sydney
Keagan York
ECSA
Sydney Australia

Rob Davis
Posts: 58
Joined: 23 Nov 2003, 16:50
Sail number: USA 32
Club: TRYC
Design: Disco

Post by Rob Davis » 12 Feb 2004, 20:35

Jose Antonio Rodriguez wrote:Only one question:

This is for the Europeans or for the World Championiship???

What´s the number of places allocated for europenas in the USA Championiship?
Jose,

The first three US Championships were won by Non-USA entrants. We've always have been interested in Non-USA entrants and in many of our regattas we have our Canadian friends competing as well. Last weekends regatta had skippers from Barbados, Canada, and Saba (a Caribbean Island).

In my opinion, we ought to treat the Continental Champs just like we do the worlds and allow each NCA entry during stage 1. The Euro Champs will be the senior most IOM regatta held around the World in 2004. I can understand that some may be put off that "thier" Continental Championship may be less Continental and more like a World Championship. But in time I expect we'll have more of the Continental Championships around the world and it will be easier to participate. I think we can all benefit from sailing together more often.

Was the World Council involved in the development of the present rules?
Rob Davis
USA 232

Jeff Kay
IRL NCA Officer
Posts: 45
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 20:22
Location: IRL 43, IRL 87

Post by Jeff Kay » 12 Feb 2004, 21:09

Thanks for all the interesting responses.

My question was indeed WHY so FEW places for our USA/AUS visitors?

It appears quite likely that there will be no spots for the USA/AUS visitors - if all the available spaces are taken up in stage 1, there will be no places available for non-Euro competitors.

Clearly this depends on the level of uptake from Euro members during the first stage.

The second part of the question has been less well addressed, the WHY !

Thanks

Jeff

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Post by Chairman » 12 Feb 2004, 21:30

Jeff Kay wrote:It appears quite likely that there will be no spots for the USA/AUS visitors
Chairman wrote:You can see that the additional allocation to Euro NCAs at stage 2 is no more than a further 15 places. Now you will have noticed that the stage 1 allocation left 24 places "free" at least, and quite possibly more because of the "*" issues. So it is certain that at least 9 places shall be available for stage 2 allocation to non-Euro NCAs.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Jeff Kay
IRL NCA Officer
Posts: 45
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 20:22
Location: IRL 43, IRL 87

Post by Jeff Kay » 12 Feb 2004, 21:41

Hi Lester
If the full effect of the doc is to have a min of 9 spots available, it would seem to be reasonably fair. If that's the case no need for more "Why"

Jeff

Roy Thompson
Posts: 380
Joined: 15 Nov 2003, 10:50
Location: ESP 212
Contact:

Post by Roy Thompson » 12 Feb 2004, 22:05

Yorkke said
And I could be wrong aren't the regatta's open in full size sailing.
I don't know, but in most sports, Continental Championships do not allow any entries from citizens not from or resident in the continent. Think of Ice Skating Euro Champs, or Football Euro Champs, or many others. r/c sailing is rather unique in allowing non-continental members into it's continental champs. What we are talking about here realy is EUROPEAN Champs. I am in completely in favour of the 'best of the rest coming over to compete, it's what we all need, but not to the extent where too many Europeans are seriously excluded. Having 15% of the fleet occupied by non Europeans is more than reasonable I think, no?

Quote Rob
But in time I expect we'll have more of the Continental Championships around the world and it will be easier to participate. I think we can all benefit from sailing together more often.
That's exactly what's needed. So get organising and sort out an 'Americas' continental Champs, and from down under we can have an 'Oceania' champs too! It will help take the pressure off the Euros a bit and give people the choice of events. We are growing rapidly and interest in high level competition isn't apparently being satisfied. We need more 'big' events. Maybe some open championships like we have in Spain. You will see that the 'Spanish Cup' is and open event (and this year it's in the same place as the upcoming Euros!)
Just some ideas of the top of my head.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 12 Feb 2004, 23:32

Chairman wrote: Worth a re- re-read, then. And possibly a quiet word with someone who actually knows what they are talking about, perhaps someone who has carried out the allocation process for real in previous events..
Maybe someone could print it out here and explain it further, in detail, step by step. It seems obvious I am not the only one questioning the way it looks.
Chairman wrote: You'll notice the preamble to a stage says something like, "... in which no NCA's allocation shall exceed 8" in the case of stage 1. You will also notice (assuming you are reading the correct document, the "Allocation" one) that the actual allocations are mentioned. For example, the stage 1 allocation for DEN is 4. This is a number which does not exceed 8, but this does not mean that the allocation for DEN will therefore become 8 at the next opportunity. If you look at the next opportunity, stage 2, you should notice that DEN is in 12th and 14th position for two more places in stage 2. This doesn't then get them 10 places, which is the maximum contemplated in stage 2. It gets them 6 places at most...
There are 84 spaces allocated in stage 1, and the next 15 spots are shown at the beginning of stage 2, However, stage 2 also says that spaces can continue to be allocated as necessary, but not more than 10 per NCA, and I quote the first part of 8.7.1 "In which no Member NCA shall have their allocation increased above 10 places. If there are still places after the initial allocation,
(i)Any available places shall be allocated to European Member NCAs that have sent in applications for additional places before the closing date, using the finishing order of boats from the European Member NCAs in the previous European championship."
Now, that tells me that spaces will be continually offered as long as "any" are left, all the way through the list of finishers from the last regatta. Yes, there are only 15 on your list, but the regulation clearly states you may take what is left up to 10 per NCA. This guarantees nothing to any NCA other than Europeans.
Chairman wrote: You can see that the additional allocation to Euro NCAs at stage 2 is no more than a further 15 places. Now you will have noticed that the stage 1 allocation left 24 places "free" at least, and quite possibly more because of the "*" issues. So it is certain that at least 9 places shall be available for stage 2 allocation to non-Euro NCAs.
No, these are not "free". These "free" spaces are for European NCA's that were not represented in the last regatta. The "*" has nothing to do with non-European entries. Here is the cut/paste straight from the page: "* European Member NCAs which were not represented on previous championship and have asked for additional places should be added to this list according to 8.7.1(i)(iii)(b)".
This is the way I'm reading it, straight off the IOMICA website (which btw, most of the links don't work. you have to try them all to find in on some other obscure page) The only spot that mentions Non_Europeans is just before this, but it still uses the word "may". In my dictionary, "may" guarantees nothing. Saying that there will surely be at least 9 spots available after 84 offers in stage 1, and an unkown amount at the beginning of stage 2 (not more than 10 per NCA, but nothing saying "only 1,only 2, etc") is not supported by enough factual evidence for me to believe it. No one knows for sure how many spots the European NCA's are going to take.
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 13 Feb 2004, 00:26

Chairman wrote:[*]
So, let me see if I've got this straight. You are accusing the IOMICA Events Sub-Committee and the Exec of:
  • providing untrue and false information and mis-representing the "real" situation.
No, I don't think untrue and false, but quite possible mis-representation. See, most people, won't read into detail these types of documents. They'll just do what their NCA tells them (very few read SI's as well). I suppose accusing is the only proper word in this case, so we'll have to live with it.
Chairman wrote:[*] re-writing the regulations with the explicit purpose of trying to remove the rest of the world from the Euro champs.
Simply put... YES! If this were not the case, the rest of the world would not have been DELETED from stage 1! Lester, you admitted yourself earlier in this thread that you had pressure from European NCA's saying they did not want to give up spots to outside NCA's.
Chairman wrote:[*] making provision for places to non-Euro entrants which have a lower status than the places allocated to Euro competitors.
Well, I guess. Going around twice through Euro NCA's before any Non-Euro would be "lower status".
Chairman wrote:]/*:m][*] regarding everyone outside of Europe as persons unable to think for themselves and failing to treat them with appropriate care and consideration.
Well, if IOMICA thought they could just change the regs without anyone noticing or caring, then yes, I would think that someone thinks I'm unable to "think for myself".
Chairman wrote:[*] not providing true and accurate accounts of the decisions that have been taken.
Well, it is on the website, so I would have to say it's been provided. The documents are accurate, but the comments here in the thread do not seem to be.
Chairman wrote:[*] causing wilful damage to the IOM class.
It may not have been willful, but, yes, this will damage the class.
Chairman wrote:[*] furthering their own interests at the expense of others.
Hmm, maybe not intentional, but yes, if you are on a committee that was involved in these decisions, AND a European competitor, you furthered your own interests.
Chairman wrote:[*] furthering the interests of their own territory and failing to take proper account of what is right for the IOM class[/list].
Same answer as above.
Chairman wrote:These are quite serious allegations, and probably now require the attention of others.
Good! The whole intent of my comments were to be sure that the average skipper is aware of what is happening at the upper level. The committees may have the power to change whatever they want, whenever they want without vote or consultation within the class, but you won't get away with it without notice.

I am a man of integrity, honesty, and am not afraid to say what I have on my mind. If I make a mistake, I'll do what it takes to make it right. I am not afraid to confront a problem.
As an IOM owner and skipper, I am entitled to speaking my mind without being threatened. As a chair holder, you (general again, not just you, Lester) are obliged to listen. There have been times where I have put down the transmitter to RD because it was the right thing to do FOR THE IOM CLASS. I race with passion, and strive to be better every day. Someday, I want to win the worlds, but I can't do it without racing against past and current champions.
I respect that there are many volunteers trying to make this thing work. BUT, some of these decisions should be discussed as a class, not behind closed doors at the upper level. The documents that were changed for the 2004 Euro's were changed for every continental championship to follow. We (USA) won't have one if we must follow the guidelines that have just been set forth (and by the way, "why don't you have your own championship" is NOT the answer to this problem). We WANT your best to be here, and we would want to be sure that they had the opportunity. That means FIRST STAGE! Are we allowed to change these regulations as we see fit? I bet not.
Respectfully,
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Steve Landeau
Posts: 256
Joined: 26 Nov 2003, 07:25
Location: USA 12

Post by Steve Landeau » 13 Feb 2004, 00:42

bgrcyachting wrote:
Can anyone tell me if the provision for 4 spots at previous championships were guarrantied allocations at stage 1 of entries, or in the middle of stage 2 with the wording MAY preceeding.
Brad Gibson
AUS 42
Because of Australia's participation in the last EC, yes, AUS was guaranteed a stage 1 spot. No guarantee as to whom tho'. That would have been separate from the stage 1- 4 max spots that "may" be allocated to non-qualified DM's. In fact, the old procedure was identical whether it be a CC or a WC. Obviously, that option is gone.....
Steve Landeau
AMYA 10859
IOM USA 112
Finn USA 112
Cal 25 #548

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Post by Chairman » 13 Feb 2004, 11:49

Steve Landeau wrote:
bgrcyachting wrote:
Can anyone tell me if the provision for 4 spots at previous championships were guarrantied allocations at stage 1 of entries
Because of Australia's participation in the last EC, yes, AUS was guaranteed a stage 1 spot.
Just to correct some matters of fact.

The "provision for 4 spots" was provision for guests to the championship at the sole discretion of the RSD. Nothing about that provision ensured that the "guests" would obtain automatic re-entry to any subsequent championship. Contrary to what Steve claims, AUS was not and could not have been "guaranteed a stage 1 spot".

The revised regulations for Euro 2004 make a different provision. The 12 guest places are now offered based upon previous Euro and World participation. Under the new regulations, AUS is in first position (I believe, writing from memory, followed by NZL, USA, CAN, and RSA) to be granted a guest place, on the basis that it was the highest-placed non-Euro country in the 2002 Euro event.
Last edited by Chairman on 13 Feb 2004, 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

Chairman
IOMICA Chairman
Posts: 1197
Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 21:42

Post by Chairman » 13 Feb 2004, 13:07

To clear up a couple of other things.

The current Euro 2004 regulations will not and cannot apply to future continental championships -- if nothing else, their wording specifically refers to "European" championships... The Events Sub-Committee has the development of a general set of Class Championship Regulations on its "To Do" list. I am confident they will consult widely on them.

Followers of ISAF discussions will know that the Class Championship Regulations are increasingly being seen as equal in importance to the Class Rules. One of the issues for the World Council will be, in due course, to decide whether our CCRs should come into the same category as IOM Class Rules, should come into the same category as IOMICA Regulations, or should stay as they are.
Chairman
IOMICA Executive

yorkke
Posts: 10
Joined: 12 Feb 2004, 19:17
Location: AUS 24

Post by yorkke » 13 Feb 2004, 18:19

I think you would find that in Sailing zone championships do allow for non-zone entries.
Keagan York
ECSA
Sydney Australia

Roy Thompson
Posts: 380
Joined: 15 Nov 2003, 10:50
Location: ESP 212
Contact:

Post by Roy Thompson » 16 Feb 2004, 00:57

Surely it just depends if the 'zone championship' is 'open' or not, but as I said, many sports have closed continental champs, for better or worse.

As for the IOM Euros, I can't find any documentary evidence to state that they are or ever were 'open' or not. The fact that in the past non-europeans came to IOM Euros on specific occasions may have been related to specific requests by organisers to RSD, but doesn't in itself indicate that the event is 'open'.
Roy Thompson
"WE DON'T SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE, WE SEE THINGS AS WE ARE" A.N.

Dick Carver
Posts: 55
Joined: 23 Nov 2003, 22:06
Location: USA 22

Post by Dick Carver » 16 Feb 2004, 02:11

I was under the impression that the "I" on all of our sails was an upper case "I". And as such, referred to an International class in the broadest sense of the word.
It was stated somewhere below that "some Euro NCA's want only Euro competitors".
It's saddening to hear that that attitude exists, and that pressure was brought to accommodate it.
Not good for the class guys.
Dick Carver

Locked