RRS question, tacking at the leeward mark

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RRS question, tacking at the leeward mark

Post by Lester » 05 Jul 2006, 22:32

Here is a situation I recently observed (and couldn't resist the impulse to try the new images hosting on the forum!):

Image

Blue is clear ahead rounding the leeward mark, but takes rather more room than might be thought seamanlike. Green sees the gap, and takes it. They make contact... Let us agree that Blue had completed her tack onto starboard before the contact. Oh, and the next mark is dead upwind.

The question is, what rule was broken?

[Edit to clarify direction of next mark.]
Last edited by Lester on 06 Jul 2006, 08:29, edited 1 time in total.
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edmorales

Post by edmorales » 06 Jul 2006, 03:40

does rule 18, room at the mark apply?
ed

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Post by Lester » 06 Jul 2006, 08:27

Hi Ed

Sure:
RRS wrote:18.1 When This Rule Applies
Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are required to leave on the same side, [...] until they have passed it.
But one of the little wrinkles is that the rule which says Green must keep clear is turned off when Blue tacks:
RRS wrote:18.2(c) NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE
If a boat was clear ahead at the time she reached the two-length zone, the boat clear astern shall thereafter keep clear. [...] If the boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2(c) no longer applies and remains inapplicable.
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Post by Steve Landeau » 08 Jul 2006, 02:06

Rule 15 was broken.
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Post by Hiljoball » 10 Jul 2006, 19:15

Rules 13 14 and 15 are the operative rules. Rule 18 does not apply.

It is not clear that any rule was broken. Blue has the right to tack provided that there is room and opportunity for green to keep clear after the tack is completed.

In this picture there may have been room. It is not stated that contact occured between the boats or between green and the mark.
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Post by Lester » 10 Jul 2006, 19:22

Hiljoball wrote:Rule 18 does not apply
Hi John

Why doesn't 18 apply?
It is not clear that any rule was broken
There was contact.
It is not stated that contact occured between the boats or between green and the mark
Contact was between the two boats (yellow star-burst-shaped thing in diagram).
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Post by Steve Landeau » 10 Jul 2006, 22:02

Lester wrote:
Hiljoball wrote:
Why doesn't 18 apply?

.
18 is turned off as soon as blue crosses head to wind (18.2c).
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Post by Brig North » 10 Jul 2006, 22:04

Lester, here I have all the time in the world and a rule book at my fingertips, yet I am still scratching my head. I won't get the answer correct under these most ideal conditions, so for sure I would not make the right move in a race.

I have read that Elvstrom did all sorts of role playing with the rules to make sure he was prepared for any eventuality. Obviously, I haven't done my homework, but here goes. Is the boat that tacked to starboard inside the zone out based on 18.3?

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Post by Lester » 10 Jul 2006, 23:01

Steve Landeau wrote:18 is turned off as soon as blue crosses head to wind (18.2c).
Hi Steve

Isn't it just 18.2(c) which is turned off, not the whole of 18?
18.2 Giving Room; Keeping Clear
(c) NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE
If a boat was clear ahead [...]. If the boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2(c) no longer applies and remains inapplicable.
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Post by Steve Landeau » 10 Jul 2006, 23:40

Lester wrote:Isn't it just 18.2(c) which is turned off, not the whole of 18?
18.2 Giving Room; Keeping Clear
(c) NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE
If a boat was clear ahead [...]. If the boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2(c) no longer applies and remains inapplicable.
Yes, that is true, but since only 18.2(c) applies in this situation, the rest of 18 remains irrelevant.
once blue tacks, she is on a beat to windward, and 18 does not apply.
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Post by Lester » 11 Jul 2006, 01:04

Steve Landeau wrote:Yes, that is true, but since only 18.2(c) applies in this situation, the rest of 18 remains irrelevant
Hi Steve

I'm not sure that 18 is turned off (made irrelevant) yet. We agree that 18.2(c) applies for a while. Then, it *doesn't* apply at position 6. Presumably the rest of 18 remains relevant because the boats have not yet rounded the mark (18 isn't turned off by anything in 18.1 as far as I can see). So in particular, in position 6, isn't Green now an inside overlapped boat with rights given by 18.2(a) while the two are rounding the mark?
once blue tacks, she is on a beat to windward, and 18 does not apply
That is what I thought at first. Here is 18.1(b):
18.1 When This Rule Applies
Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark [...]. However, it does not apply: (b) while the boats are on opposite tacks, either on a beat to windward or [...]
I can see two somewhat related issues. First, 18.1(b) talks about the boats, plural, being on a beat to windward, but at best only one of them is (Blue), the other (Green) isn't yet. Second, if the boats have not yet passed the mark, then they are not on the next leg of the course, which is a beat to windward. They are still on the run or reach or whatever. That is, the phrase 'on a beat to windward' isn't describing what the boats are doing, but instead is describing where on the course they are...? I'm thinking that 18 is alive and kicking here (smile).
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Post by Lester » 11 Jul 2006, 01:06

Brig North wrote:Is the boat [...] inside the zone out based on 18.3?
Hi Brig

Not too sure what you mean here... (smile)
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Post by Steve Landeau » 11 Jul 2006, 01:45

Lester, I see where you are going with this, and it has a certain amount of merit.
Most importantly, is that I think we both agree that Blue is wrong, at least at the point of contact.

To stir things up a bit put Blue tacking to starboard at least 1 boatlength further to leeward, so she can establish her starboard course. Now do you still think Green has inside rights?
I don't think so.... on opposite tacks, and beating to weather, take the marks away....
Green would be on port tack, and changing course. Would Blue still be wrong? If so, why?
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Post by kure » 11 Jul 2006, 09:28

The way I see this is:

1) there were no overlap going into the rounding. if green chooses to go on the inside, she must keep clear of the blue boat.
2) it looks like blue have completed her tack and are on starboard when the contact situation occurs.

I would think green has to spin here....
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Post by kure » 11 Jul 2006, 09:40

At www.iom-nordic.org under "info" and "test your skills" at the bottom of the page, you will find similar situations that have been in the jury room.
Case 63 among others....
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Post by Lester » 11 Jul 2006, 11:43

Steve Landeau wrote:put Blue tacking to starboard at least 1 boatlength further to leeward, so she can establish her starboard course. Now do you still think Green has inside rights?
I don't think so.... on opposite tacks, and beating to weather, take the marks away....
Hi Steve

OK, let's assume Blue is on an established close-hauled starboard course as you say. Thing is, I don't know that the boats have both 'passed' the mark. It is debateable whether Blue has, but I'm pretty sure that Green has not, since the mark is not astern of either transom. I still get the feeling that rule 18 is in force...

The familiar business about 'on opposite tacks, and beating to weather, take the marks away' I think may only apply on the *approach* to a mark?
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Post by Lester » 11 Jul 2006, 11:46

kure wrote:At www.iom-nordic.org under "info" and "test your skills" at the bottom of the page, you will find similar situations that have been in the jury room.
Hi Kure

Can't find anything there that I can understand, I'm afraid... (smile)
Case 63 among others....
Are you speaking about the ISAF Case Book?
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Post by Marko Majic » 11 Jul 2006, 17:23

In the example as drawn - I would be inclined to think that in position 6 blue boat is head-to-wind and therefore still tacking (so green need not start evasive action). In position 7 blue has just made the close-hauled course (or perhaps a split-second earlier as Lester suggests). Either way (to my understanding) green only then has to start keeping clear - and it is far too late for that. So - my call would be that blue boat broke rule 13.

In the more interesting scenario that Steve suggested (and, was probably Lester's discussion intent all along) where blue HAS, in fact, completed the tack well in time and is now coming back to the mark on starboard (i.e. if we rotate blue some 25 degrees counter-clockwise at position 6). Hmmm...

Initially I would have said a no-brainer - starboard rights... However, I see where Lester is going with this:

Rule 18.2(c) is turned off (forget about blue's rights from coming to the zone clear ahead). Obviously, (b) never applied and (d) & (e) are irrelevant here. 18.3 also does not apply (Brig!) because the two boats were not **approaching** the mark on different tacks (before one of them tacked)...

That would mean that (**IF** rule 18 still applies) it reverts to it's basic form as given by 18.2(a) with the inside boat now being green (remember that blue lost the rights of 18.2(c) when she tacked.

However, this hinges on whether rule 18 still applies - because if it doesn't then the boats (which are now on opposite tacks) are not considered overlapped (they are only overlapped while on opposite tacks *IF* rule 18 applies according to the definition).

I would tend to think that it does NOT (apply)... The reasoning being that at position 5 blue boat's proper course to pass the mark is to tack (because she sailed far below the mark) while green boat's proper course is not (because she is right by the mark - and really cannot tack before she passes the mark). Therefore, by 18.1(a) rule 18 is out, boats are NOT overlapped (after green completes her tack) and the only rule governing them is 10.

Or maybe not... :lol:

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Post by Steve Landeau » 11 Jul 2006, 17:40

For years I thought I had the meaning of 18 completely understood. Now, Lester has to come in and wreck everything. How on earth am I to get any work done (at work) when my life has been turned upside down because I have to learn rule 18 all over again..... sigh...... :( :) :shock: :?

I'm sticking with: If Blue has given Green time to keep clear after her tack, she is ok, If not, Blue is out.
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Post by Hiljoball » 11 Jul 2006, 18:59

Perhaps this will help simplify the situation and the applicable rules...

Green entered the circle after blue, so there was no overlap so green has no rights under rule 18. Green has to keep clear of blue, including blue hardening up for the new leg.

So the only rules left to apply are the tacking and changing course rules that begin to apply when blue begins to tack.

This is just a port/starboard situaton.

So the question is can green keep clear once blue has completed her tack? If there was time, then green gets the penalty, if not then blue tacked too close.
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Post by Lester » 11 Jul 2006, 19:21

Marko wrote:However, this hinges on whether rule 18 still applies - because if it doesn't then the boats (which are now on opposite tacks) are not considered overlapped (they are only overlapped while on opposite tacks *IF* rule 18 applies according to the definition).
Hi Marko

Spot on! Important to remember that opposite tack boats can be overlapped when 18 applies. So here is when 18 applies:
18.1 When This Rule Applies
Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark [...] until they have passed it.
So: they must *both* have passed the mark before 18 switches off. Then, what does it mean 'to have passed a mark'? I think it is accepted that, like an overlap, a boat has passed a mark when she is no longer 'overlapped' with the mark -- ie it lies aft of her transom. Has Blue passed the mark? Don't think so... Has Green passed the mark? Certainly not. So 18 applies. Blue and Green are thus overlapped (Blue threw away her 18.2(c) rights to round without Green getting in her way when she tacked), and I think Green now enjoys 18.2(a) protection as inside overlapped boat from position 6 onwards. Sorry, Steve... (smile)

But wait... it gets worse.
Steve Landeau wrote:I'm sticking with: If Blue has given Green time to keep clear after her tack, she is ok, If not, Blue is out.
Green doesn't have to keep clear once Blue tacks. It is Blue who now has to give room, even if she tacked earlier and was settled on starboard, until *both* have passed the mark. Gosh!
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Post by Marko Majic » 12 Jul 2006, 08:17

Lester wrote:So 18 applies. Blue and Green are thus overlapped (Blue threw away her 18.2(c) rights to round without Green getting in her way when she tacked), and I think Green now enjoys 18.2(a) protection as inside overlapped boat from position 6 onwards. Sorry, Steve... (smile)
As we agreed - that depends entirely on whether rule 18 continues to apply. One could argue that (based on their relative positions at step 5) the proper course to pass the mark for Blue is to tack and for Green it is not. In which case the rule 18 no longer applies (remember - 18.1(b)).
Lester wrote:But wait... it gets worse.
Steve Landeau wrote:I'm sticking with: If Blue has given Green time to keep clear after her tack, she is ok, If not, Blue is out.
Green doesn't have to keep clear once Blue tacks. It is Blue who now has to give room, even if she tacked earlier and was settled on starboard, until *both* have passed the mark. Gosh!
Well I have to strongly disagree with that part Lester! Even should we accept (and I still have some lingering doubts - see above) that rule 18 continues to apply - Blue does not have to keep clear! Green does! All Blue has to do is leave enough room between her port gunwale and the mark for Green to pass. Of course, Green may have to tack to pass at which point she could easily run afoul of rule 13.

One way or the other (if we accept that Blue has completed her tack in time) I would rather be Blue going into that protest hearing... :lol:

Cheers,

Marko

P.S. Good find Lester!!! Like Steve, I also thought I have seen/heard/read/digested all there was to rule 18... Guess I have to think again... :lol:
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Post by kure » 12 Jul 2006, 09:51

I still think John is right. This is a starboard/port situation.

The part of the rule that says something about tacking to round the mark, has to do with tacking before the mark, or tacking to get to the mark.
Blue boat has passed the mark and has two options, 1)continue on port tack 2) tack onto starboard (his course is way clear of the mark).

If one boat has to do an big outside rounding and tacks far below the mark, and is on starboard - goes clear the mark- he has rounded. I find nothing in the rules that boats in a rounding has the right of way over starboat boats on a beat. The rules determins right of way between boats that are rounding the mark, and it says clearly that once you tack, the rounding part is over.

Lester - I am sorry you couldn't find it - try this
http://www.finckh.org/rspiel/indexe.htm
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Post by Lester » 12 Jul 2006, 10:23

kure wrote:Blue boat has passed the mark ...
Hi Kure

How do you know that? Blue is overlapped with the mark at all times...
Marko wrote: ... depends entirely on whether rule 18 continues to apply. One could argue that (based on their relative positions at step 5) the proper course to pass the mark for Blue is to tack
Hi Marko

Yes, one could argue that ... but I think it would be a somewhat weak argument (smile)! I don't see any compelling evidence about one of them having a proper course which means one of them *should* tack, whereas the other one has a proper course which means she should *not* tack. For me, if I was Blue, I could just as well hold port tack for a while until the mark was well behind me, and if I was Green I could just as well tack to starboard as I rounded. The next mark is dead to windward...
Marko wrote:Even should we accept that rule 18 continues to apply - Blue does not have to keep clear! Green does! All Blue has to do is leave enough room between her port gunwale and the mark for Green to pass.
I hope I was careful enough to say that Blue needs to give room to Green; she is not burdened with keeping clear as far as I can see. Green is protected by 18.2(a), and is entitled to room, so she doesn't have to keep clear, or give room, to Blue.
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Post by Marko Majic » 12 Jul 2006, 16:33

Lester wrote: I hope I was careful enough to say that Blue needs to give room to Green; she is not burdened with keeping clear as far as I can see. Green is protected by 18.2(a), and is entitled to room, so she doesn't have to keep clear, or give room, to Blue.
What you said is:
Lester wrote:Green doesn't have to keep clear once Blue tacks.
But clearly Green **does** have to keep clear - since Blue is on stb. She may or may not have rights to room - that part is in the air still. :lol: But it certainly looks like Green IS, in fact, entitled to room.
Hiljoball wrote: Green entered the circle after blue, so there was no overlap so green has no rights under rule 18. Green has to keep clear of blue, including blue hardening up for the new leg.
John - the fact that Green entered the zone after Blue bears no relevance after Blue tacks (due to the fact that 18.2(c) gets turned off when the boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind).

Like Kure and John, I too would (intuitively) like to treat the situation as a port/starboard because that was my accepted understanding of rule 18.

Now - after much head scratching :lol: - how's this?

Accepting that Blue has to give room but Green has to keep clear - clearly at position 6 (and assuming that Blue at that time is already close-hauled), Green can only keep clear by bearing off behind Blue (she can't tack yet because of the mark). Blue forcing Green to bear off would **NOT** in this instance be the same as denying her room - "room" is space needed to pass the mark on the required side not necessarily (as we've come to view it) space between the other boat and the mark (that is simply the only available space in the most common rounding).

So - in other words - we **CAN** just take the mark away and view it as port/starboard rounding...

Does it make sense? :lol:

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Post by Steve Landeau » 12 Jul 2006, 17:18

Hi, Marko.
I'm having difficulty going with Lester on this one as well, but I am beginning to understand why it may be intended to work this way.
Allowing the clear ahead boat to tack within the zone causes unnecessary chaos. Usually, if clear ahead wants to tack in this situation, it is to protect her from her own poor rounding. If Blue were to have a "proper" rounding, and tack right away, she would be further upwind and clear of a proper rounding from Green. Since Green never has to anticipate Blue's actions, Green would almost always have to make drastic changes in course should Blue make a maneuvere like this within the zone.
Yes, Blue is on Stb, but if Lester is right, and Green gains protection under 18, Section C takes precedence over Section A, which would protect Green.
This has to be covered somewhere in the case book or appeals. If not, maybe we need to submit it!
I have been to Dave Perry's seminars, and one of the things he tells us is that OUR interpretations of the rule often cloud the rule itself.
In this case, Blue has changed the situation due to her own actions. Rule 18 applies if there is an overlap. The subparts of 18 give exceptions and limitations. Simple 18 is first, subparts next. Since Blue gave up her protection from 18.2(c) by tacking (thus putting Green into an inside overlapped position), and Green is "still rounding", 18 becomes in effect immediately, and 15 also does not apply.

Lester, I hope you are right about this, or else I'll have to start seeing a therapist, and I'm going to send you the bill!! :)
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Post by Marko Majic » 12 Jul 2006, 18:28

Hi Steve,

I'm not so much having difficulty in going along with Lester on this - in fact, I like the idea that you should not tack in that situation. As you point out - it's usually in order to protect oneself from poor rounding and deny room to boats that you unwittingly left for them.

It's something we talked about in Detroit - if memory serves... :lol:

I'm just struggling to reconcile the apparent conflict between 10 and 18 - **before** I find myself in the position of Green and having to decide if I should push for the room at the mark and yell at Blue or bear off and sail on behind.

The way I see it - Green still has to keep clear (10) but she may be entitled to room (18 ). But how does Green keep clear? She must either bear off or tack (just like if the mark wasn't there) - crossing does not seem to be an option in the diagram.

I suppose if Green attempted to keep clear by tacking and made contact with Blue - one could only rule that Green failed to keep clear! On the other hand if she tacked to keep clear and made contact with the mark (while avoiding Blue altogether) - then one could argue that Blue failed to provide room.

Either way - as diagrammed, I would still rule in favour of Blue if I was unfortunate enough to have to sit in that particular protest hearing. :lol:

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Post by Steve Landeau » 12 Jul 2006, 19:22

Marko wrote:
Either way - as diagrammed, I would still rule in favour of Blue if I was unfortunate enough to have to sit in that particular protest hearing. :lol:

Marko
I would disagree.
I have always favored Green in this situation, although I think my rule number has changed.
Initially as stated, I thought Blue had broken 15. Now, I do believe that Green is protected by 18 as soon as Blue crosses HTW. Also, as stated, Section C in part 2 takes precedence over Section A, so port starboard is out "while rounding".
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Post by Lester » 12 Jul 2006, 20:46

Marko wrote:Green still has to keep clear (10)
Hi Marko

I think Steve has said it, RRS 10 is switched off when RRS 18 applies.
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Post by Marko Majic » 12 Jul 2006, 22:03

First of all let me preface this (again) that the discussion is about a modified scenario where Blue finishes her tack earlier than shown in the diagram! :)
Lester wrote:I think Steve has said it, RRS 10 is switched off when RRS 18 applies.
I disagree with that - nowhere in RRS 18 is RRS 10 "switched off". Rules in Section C do, in fact, "switch off" certain rules in Sections A and B - when necessary. RRS 19, for example, explicitly overrules RRS 10 and 13. However, the only rules that RRS 18 explicitly "turns off" is RRS 16 ( 18.2(d) ) and RRS 15 ( 18.3(b) ). RRS 18 never "turns off" RRS 10 - which leads me to believe that RRS 10 is in full force in our little example.

What Steve said is that Section C rule takes precedence over rule of Section A and B when there is conflict (and I, of course, agree with that - not much point arguing there - it's in black&white :lol: )

The key to that statement is that the rules are somehow in conflict before one takes precedence over the other!!!

In our example I don't see how that is the case - RRS 18 grants room to Green, RRS 10 grants ROW to Blue. Green dipping the Blue to keep clear (as she must by RRS 10) does not send her to the wrong side of the mark or into the mark - so room was there for her. Should she choose to keep clear by tacking (and completes the tack in time - since RRS 13 is another one of those rules that RRS 18 never turns off) - I would presume that Blue should perhaps luff up to insure that Green has room between her and the mark.

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