Is it allowed to borrow a boat ?

Discuss the IOM class rules and interpretations

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Eric
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Is it allowed to borrow a boat ?

Post by Eric » 06 Apr 2006, 11:18

hi

Is it a allowed by the rules to borrow a boat ant take part to an official Ranking-Race ?

Lester
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Re: Is it allowed to borrow a boat ?

Post by Lester » 06 Apr 2006, 12:20

Eric wrote:Is it a allowed by the rules to borrow a boat ant take part to an official Ranking-Race?
Hi Eric

I believe it is allowed by the Class Rules. It is called "chartering". There is usually provision in the Sailing Instructions to help a competitor who has chartered a boat:
Rule G3 is made applicable. A boat chartered or loaned may carry national letters or a sail number in contravention of the International One Metre Class Rules. Where there is any conflict in sail numbers, the race committee shall prescribe that sail numbers be amended until the conflict is resolved.
Whether it is allowed by the rules governing the 'ranking race' in question is another matter, of course. Some events like these require the competitor to own the boat being sailed; others impose a residency requirement; some restrict entry to competitors who have competed in at least one 'local' event; and so on. I would expect your NCA to have published regulations.
Lester Gilbert
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Eric
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Post by Eric » 07 Apr 2006, 11:17

Hi Lester

Many Thanks for you Answer,

Unfortunately it seems that is not allowed in Germany, despite I thought Iomica and Isaf rules were valable for every Country.

Greetings

Eric

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Post by Lester » 07 Apr 2006, 13:39

Eric wrote:Unfortunately it seems that is not allowed in Germany
Hi Eric

The regulations for a ranking event will be different in each country, I guess. In the UK, the ranking system permits chartered boats, but requires competitors to be NCA members. It is interesting to note that anyone is allowed to sail, but if not a member then they simply do not score any points.
MYA Ranking Event regulations wrote:1.6 The awarding of ranking points shall be restricted to members of clubs which have affiliated to the MYA.
1.7 Competitors who are not eligible for Ranking List points (e.g Foreign nationals) may sail in Ranking events but shall be removed from the final results before the points are calculated.
Lester Gilbert
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Steve Landeau
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Post by Steve Landeau » 09 Apr 2006, 16:39

Eric wrote:Hi Lester

Unfortunately it seems that is not allowed in Germany, despite I thought Iomica and Isaf rules were valable for every Country.
Interesting that an NCA would allow a willing skipper and an unused boat to sit sidelines while the rest of the fleet sails on.
I guess your NCA feels confident that they have enough skippers and boats, and don't need any more participants (tongue in cheek).
My guess is that if you show up on race day with boat in hand, the fleet would surely welcome you and keel haul any RD that would think otherwise.
Steve Landeau
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peter spence
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Post by peter spence » 10 Apr 2006, 11:33

what happens if you borrow a boat which has a personal number on the sail - the jib number will be different to the boat's certificate and the personal number will be in someone elses name - what happens then ?

cheers
peter

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Post by Lester » 10 Apr 2006, 12:49

what happens if you borrow a boat which has a personal number on the sail
Hi Peter

An interesting question! For my money, Rule G3 covers this, certainly in spirit if not in practice. Not all agree, however, because G3 refers only to possible violation of the Class Rules and not to any other applicable rules such as the RRS or the NCA rules on personal sail numbers.

RRS E6(b) requires the sail number to be the last two digits of the boat registration number or a 'personal number':
E6 APPENDIX G IDENTIFICATION ON SAILS
Appendix G is changed as follows:
(b) Rule G1.1(c) is changed to
a sail number, which shall be the last two digits of the boat registration number or the competitor’s personal number allotted by the relevant issuing authority.
There are two places where Appendix G, and hence E6, are invoked. In one place, RRS 77 mandates the use of App.G for sail identification. In the other place, the IOM Class Rules mandates the use of the RRS for sail identification.
C.8.3 IDENTIFICATION
Identification shall comply with the RRS.
So it all depends upon which of these two rules (RRS 77, or IOM CR C.8.3) you think has precedence.

If you think the Class Rules have precedence, then there is no problem, the issue is covered by G3, always remembering that G3 *must* itself be invoked by the Sailing Instructions and Notice of Race. If not, then it doesn't apply!

If you think the RRS has precedence over the Class Rules, then there is a small problem. Originally, G.1.1(c) says that personal sail numbers need to be permitted by the class rules. In this context, G3 makes perfect sense. However, Appendix E changes G.1.1(c), and no longer refers to personal sail numbers as a class rule issue, instead refering to them as being "allotted by the relevant issuing authority". Presumably RSD forgot to also amend G3 appropriately, since it now no longer coordinates with the E6 revisions.

To deal with this, the Sailing Instructions and the Notice of Race need to invoke a version of G3 as an addition to E6, where the change is that the sail number might be in violation, not of the class rules, but of E6:
SI and NoR Addition to Appendix E6:
E6(g) A boat chartered or loaned for an event may carry national letters or a sail number in contravention of rule E6(b). Where there is a conflict between sail numbers, the procedures of rule E6(b) shall apply.
Note that the SIs and NoR cannot amend G3 directly, since G5 requires the authority of ISAF to do so.
Lester Gilbert
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ralph kelley
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Post by ralph kelley » 10 Apr 2006, 16:31

Lester's posting really covers the rule situation thoroughly.

But I fall into Steve's camp. Let's get folks sailing.

Nothing in Lester's posting deals with any issue as to the skipper's qualifications for entering the event, nor with the boat's suitabililty for the event, rule wise, except for some number problems. And number issues have nothing to do with speed potential of the craft.

So, is the boat legal? Under the rules of the event, can he/she participate? Are the boat sail numbers readable and different from the rest of the craft participating?

Those are the thing that seem important to me.


Ralph

Lester
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Post by Lester » 12 Apr 2006, 00:30

But I fall into Steve's camp. Let's get folks sailing.
Hi Ralph

Couldn't agree more. But if the NoR and the SIs don't invoke G3 or an appropriately modified version of it, then folks wanting to sail with borrowed boats may find they have problems. We are talking, of course, about events where the Race Committee takes the letter of the rules very seriously. This simply isn't an issue otherwise.

To expand on this a little. For example, the NoR for the forthcoming Marblehead Worlds does not invoke G3. This effectively means that no one will be able to turn up and sail a borrowed or chartered boat...
Nothing in Lester's posting deals with any issue as to the skipper's qualifications for entering the event, nor with the boat's suitabililty for the event, rule wise
Nothing in Peter's question made reference, nor needed reference, to these issues. In what way do you think them relevant to the question Peter asked?
Last edited by Lester on 12 Apr 2006, 00:42, edited 1 time in total.
Lester Gilbert
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Lester
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Post by Lester » 12 Apr 2006, 00:38

The eagle-eyed may have noticed that E6(b) refers to the 'competitor's personal number', and not to the 'owner's personal number'. In the previous RRS, E6 talked about the owner... But I don't think this makes too much difference in practice, using the following line of argument:

If the boat isn't borrowed, the competitor and the owner are the same person. If the boat is borrowed, then there are four possibilities:

Sail no matches last two digits of boat no -- no problem.
Sail no is pers no of owner -- issue A.
Sail no is pers no of competitor -- issue B.
Sail no is something else again (!) -- issue C.

A: Under current wording of E6, this falls foul, and needs the fix I suggested. If the wording of E6 is changed to read 'owner's personal number', problem disappears.

B: Under current wording of E6, no problem. If for some reason we change the wording of E6 back to read 'owner's personal number', this now falls foul, and needs the fix I suggested.

C: Under current wording of E6, or if we change the wording of E6 to read 'owner's personal number', this falls foul regardless. It needs the fix I suggested.

So it seems that whether or not E6 talks about 'owner' or 'competitor', a fix is still required to G3 to bring it into line with whatever E6(b) says.
Lester Gilbert
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel » 12 Jun 2006, 11:51

Lester wrote: To expand on this a little. For example, the NoR for the forthcoming Marblehead Worlds does not invoke G3. This effectively means that no one will be able to turn up and sail a borrowed or chartered boat...

That is strange, :?: because from the results and photos I can see that Martin Roberts was sailing with #55 and Andreas boat.
Nigel Winkley
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Lester
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Post by Lester » 12 Jun 2006, 12:43

Nigel wrote:
Lester wrote: ... the NoR for the forthcoming Marblehead Worlds does not invoke G3 ...
That is strange, :?: because from the results and photos I can see that Martin Roberts was sailing with #55 and Andreas boat.
Hi Nigel

The NoR did not invoke G3, but the Sailing Instructions did (smile). The SIs also fixed one of the problems with E6(b) by having it cover the personal number of either the owner or of the competitor. So no problems there then!
Lester Gilbert
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel » 13 Jun 2006, 12:38

:idea: Thanks for the update Lester.
Nigel Winkley
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Alfonso
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Post by Alfonso » 03 Aug 2006, 12:03

Hello everybody,

I would like to go to the England Nationals to be held in Birkenhead, but for different reasons I can not take my boat with me. Is there anybody interested in renting me a boat?
If so please send me a private message to: Alfonso

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