IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

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Olivier Cohen
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IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 17 Nov 2009, 17:15

It will be fully confirmed only after formal validation by FRA MNA (FFV) planned for Nov 23rd but as calendars are being built all around Europe at this time, UNVMP Pierrelatte in France has awarded EC 2010.

Dates will be September 24th to October 2nd.

A Pre NOR will be issued shortly with a more complete schedule.

For those interested, Tricastin cup is planned at the same location for Easter (April 3rd-5th)

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Post by RoyL » 18 Nov 2009, 00:17

My understanding is that under the current agreement between RSD and IOMICA, IOMICA has the right to hold a single Continental Championship in years where there is no World Championship.

It is also my understanding that in the recent class voting, this right was extended to include continents/regions other than Europe. It is my further understanding that the public deadline called for by the IOMICA Events Committee for proposals to host a Continental Championship has long passed.

Accordingly, how is that with no public notice or discussion a Continental Championship is being awarded to France? I know that here in North America we have been discussing hosting a Continental Event but believed that we had missed the deadline. I would think that there might be similar interest from Australia/New Zealand or even South America.

Perhaps an explanation could be provided as to the process and the result?

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Post by Olivier Cohen » 18 Nov 2009, 00:41

Hello Roy,

For your information a mail to WC representatives and a post in WC section of this forum has been placed a week before formal validation by Exec. Just 1 comment received.

Regarding your question about continental championships, you must remember AGM 2008. This resolution has passed, and it will be soon included in our CR as it wasn't made last year.

[quote]1.5 Resolution WC_AGM2008_05
Proposal:
Change in Class Championship Regulations.
Replace:
4.2 The IOM Class may hold a Continental Championship biennially in the
year when there is no World Championship. Continental Championships
already agreed are:
(i) European
With:
4.2 The IOM Class may hold Continental Championships biennially in the
year when there is no World Championship. For the purposes of these
regulations “continentâ€

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Post by RoyL » 18 Nov 2009, 01:06

Olivier: You might want to check out the relevant ISAF, RSD and IOMICA documents. To the best of my knowledge, RSD has only granted to IOMICA the right to hold World Championship races. I couldn't find the regulations whereby IOMICA is authorized by RSD or ISAF to hold one or more Continental Championships. What am I missing? I don't think IOMICA resolutions govern either RSD or ISAF, so please help.

Also, could you please explain what you mean when you say a notice was sent to the World Council one week before "formal validation byExec." Did you solicit other countries for interest in holding an event or did you ask for comments and/or approval of a race in France? Very unclear.

And finally, are you saying that IOMICA is open to also sanctioning North and South American and Pacific Continental Championships all in the same year?

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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 18 Nov 2009, 06:48

As you surely understand Roy, there is something of a hierarchy built into this organization. If a class association (not just this one or just this sport/hobby) wants to canvass its constituents, it has the vehicle at its disposal in the World Council.

Each and every World Council member (you have one as well) was informed of the application, informed of the detailed response and had ample (as in many weeks) advance notice that something was going to happen. Many opportunities for the association structure to work in what I presume is the manner that was intended. If the path to follow is not to use the WC as our connection back to the NCAs and their respective members then it begs yet another question - why even have a WC?

The discussion on the US site was maybe not quite as you portray. The discussion (my reading of it) was that the USA should "man up" (not my words but those of the original poster) and bid to hold a Worlds sometime in the future. Out of that was a discussion of holding a Can-Am kind of event to gather together a widespread organizing committee and start down the path of having an appropriate site and well trained officials. When Bruce offered that path to follow I think he very smartly avoided calling for a Continental Championship, at least for the first year or so.

To get to a point where there is a NA based Continental CR and then a Worlds CR are in place is a great goal a great idea. To say that there was about to be an application or that it was being withheld because of a presumption that the application date had passed is certainly not a thought that is posted on the US Forum. Maybe it will be momentarily but up to right now, it isn't there as of 1 minute ago.

I guess this is the next beating for the Exec to take.
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Post by RoyL » 18 Nov 2009, 19:27

Barry: Not sure why such a negative response. If you look at my post, I think I asked a series of reasonable questions, none of which were answered by the way. Certainly I am not trying to give the Exec a "beating".

To recap--the first question I asked is where in our governing documents is IOMICA authorized to hold a Continental Championship? I raised this because when I looked through the website and class governing documents, I couldn't in fact find any document that granted IOMICA the right to hold Continental Championships. If it isn't there, it is probably something we need to fix between IOMICA and RSD. If it is, there is no problem.

The second question I asked was based on the fact that Olivier's first language isn't English and it was unclear at least to me is what he meant when he said that a post had been "placed" in the WC Forum section "before formal validation by Exec." What I was curious about, and what I'm still not sure about, is if this meant that the World Council was solicited for competing bids or notified of France's offer.

The third question I asked was also a matter of clarification. Under the IOMICA 2008 resolutions, they seem to be unclear if the class can hold multiple continental championships. If the Exec thinks we can, I was hoping to try to work to put something together in the US for the fall. This is particularly true if RSD can make some progress in relaxing the ISAF requirements regarding juries and officials.

Finally, let me suggest to you that even though their is a hierarchy built into every organization, there is never a downside in having more communication rather than less. Why not talk to the membership and the World Council? Why not make all communications open to all? Limiting the flow of information often leads to an "us" vs. "them" attitude that usually leads to disfunction. Open lines of communication can generate good ideas, informed decisions and generate consensus.

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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 18 Nov 2009, 22:58

I try not to be negative but there comes a time when I just can't help it. Those who do know me should be able to confirm that I go to fairly great lengths to find the bright side but having most every word criticized to a great extent makes you want to firstly not answer and secondly tends to make you take an extremely defensive position almost immediately.

I will say I don't have the answers to all the questions, maybe even none of them.

For the first one I will turn it around and ask how the class association had previously approved Continental Championships? In that you did have a role on the Exec for sometime, I would presume you would have some advice and direction to offer. I don't think the documentation and procedures have changed since and so you would know how that was to be done.

On the second one - there were official notices of deadlines for submissions posted on the web page for the European event (in early July) so everyone knew that there were openings available for that. And out of that no one prompted that we should be considering any other Continental events. When an application was submitted that was posted to the WC without a single response being given (the end of October).

For your third question I'll have to dig a bit more but it seems to me that we made some at least inquiries if not rule changes to allow for multiple Continental Championships but how far that went is unclear at this very moment. Perhaps you can shed some light on where that went to?

For the most part I will agree with your last comment. At the same time, I think it is fair to say that you cannot conduct all of an associations business in a completely public forum, at least (sometimes) in the formative stage. But there is certainly a point where more general canvassing of opinion is required.

I will do a bit of research and get back to you on the third point regardless of what I find.
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 19 Nov 2009, 01:16

OK, I read.

I can't conceive what is unclear. If you look at the previous wording and the revised wording, it is all about pluralism and what constitutes a continent.

I fail to see how, by the words that were unanimously adopted, it can be anything other than possible (probably desirable) to accept applications for multiple Continental CR regattas. Providing, of course, that we are even allowed to have Continental Championships let alone a single one.

I would think that we would all want to encourage and assist any other Continental CR application. My opinion only.
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 19 Nov 2009, 01:19

I tried to resist but I just can't.

If we were an ISAF International Class we would be able to have Continental ChampionshipS and not be cncerned about it.

But, alas, we are not.
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Post by Bruce Andersen » 19 Nov 2009, 03:10

To inject some clarification to this discussion:

The original Class Rules allowed a Continental Championship Regatta in non WC years, but only Europe was defined as a continent.

The CR changes passed in the 2008 AGM were authored by VCEvents and were designed to include all the land masses defined by ISAF as "continents" to hold "Continental Championships" (note the plural form of "Championship").

The allows the class to hold Continental Championship Regattas (in Non-World Championship years) on any of the ISAF defined continents (Europe, North America, South America, Asia, Africa and Oceania) - one per continent per (non WC) year. So theoretically, IOMICA could sanction 6 continental championship regattas (one per each defined "continent") in any year not already scheduled to hold a World Championship Regatta.

I agree with Roy on the issue of communication: while some things need to be kept secret, the vast majority of things pertaining to IOMICA matters can and should be available to the general membership. I will use the ESC as an example: whenever there was an application or an updated bit of information concerning world or continental championship regattas, or even the NOR/SI's for said regattas, a post to the general membership was made to keep everyone abreast of the situation.

This type of open communication does many things: It
1) keeps information flowing freely
2) decreases the "us vs. them" mentality
3) treats the general membership with the respect they deserve
4) keeps people interested
5) shows the general membership that the EXEC is doing something
6) shows the general membership that the EXEC is interested in opinions other than just theirs

I am happy that we will have at least one 2010 Continental Championship Regatta! IMHO, it would have been nice to know that one was developing rather that having it announced out of the blue, not that I expect this EXEC to listen to comments by the general membership, but simply out of respect for us fellow IOM skippers and IOMICA members.
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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 19 Nov 2009, 05:43

This constant inference of secrets and underhanded carryings on sure gets tired, fast. The clarification, from a good and involved source, is good to see.

But it seems impossible, for a few people at least, to have any sort of "discussion" without a parting shot being fired or with some built in innuendo just having to be inserted.

Based on what I have seen and read in many documents, I don't think there is any more "secret stuff" going on than at at any other time in the past.

I expect that there will be many people running for all position at the next Executive elections. There should be no problem finding many candidates for these positions as we are doing such a completely terrible job it will be simple for everyone to pick up the bones and instantly become superior leaders.

When you (and apparently there are a few) subscribe to the management theory that "floggings will continue until morale improves" it must give great pleasure to pound on the same folks all the time. Remember that when you are in office.
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Post by Lester » 19 Nov 2009, 09:09

The IOM Class Championship Rules (CCR) deal with the events which fall under the remit of the IOMICA Events Sub-Committee.

The IOM CCRs were based upon the RSD CCRs at the time that IOMICA was formed and were approved by RSD. Part of the approval was that the IOM CCRs 'said the right things just like the RSD ones'.

Since the IOM gained its own CCRs, the RSD CCRs for the other classes have undergone some development, and they now say:

"2.2 Continental Championships
Each International Class may have a Continental Championship biennially in the year when there is no World Championship subject to the agreement of RSD Permanent Committee.
Continental Championships already agreed are:
(i) European
(ii) American
(iii) Asian
(iv) Pacific"

The RSD - IOMICA letter of agreement mentions only World Championships because World Championships are the subject of a specific ISAF regulation dealing with radio sailing championship events, ISAF Regulation 18.5. Otherwise the letter wouldn't even mention World Championships, since the matter of IOM Class Championships is dealt with by the IOM CCRs.
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Post by RoyL » 19 Nov 2009, 19:15

I have to say that the explanation provided by Lester seems to be circular and I don't think he is speaking for the Executive. All I am trying to find out is if there is a document from RSD/ISAF authorizing multiple IOM Continental Championships? If there is could someone say where it is located online? If there isn't a document, lets fix the problem. I would think that the new PC at RSD would be glad to help.

And Barry, getting "flack" from the membership unfortunately comes with the job. In fact, if you take a look back, you should find that many members of the current Executive were pretty good at taking lots of shots at the prior Executive. (lol) All I can say is that you get used to it after a while. best, roy

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Post by Brig North » 19 Nov 2009, 22:17

Roy,

Was Bruce's explanation not adequate?

Brig

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Post by RoyL » 20 Nov 2009, 03:35

Brig: No, what Bruce wrote wasn't the answer I was looking for either. To be very clear about what I am asking--in order to hold a "World" or "Continental" championship, it must be sanctioned by ISAF. The IOM Worlds are specifically sanctioned in the agreement between RSD/ISAF and IOMICA. I couldn't locate a similar document that sanctions Continental Championships. Both Bruce and Lester Gilbert refer to IOMICA rules and regulations, neither pointed to the governing RSD/ISAF documents. If there is none, we need to clean up the documentation. If it's there, then no problem.

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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 20 Nov 2009, 05:36

This going to be a bit long but we are bridging 3 organizations and all the associated cross references.

Actually an interesting question as it turns out.

The RSD-ICA agreement says:

5. ISAF Regulation 18.4 provides that the ISAF–RSD may hold one annual World Champion¬ship per ISAF–RSD Class up to a maximum of three World Championships. The IOM ICA is authorised to approve up to one annual World Championship for the IOM Class.

It should be noted that the ISAF Regulations have been modified and 18.4 now refers to Classic Yachts and the new reference is 18.5 which says:

Radio Sailing
18.5 ISAF Radio Sailing Division may hold one annual World Championship per ISAF – RSD Class up to a maximum of three World Championships.

So in both cases there is no reference to Continental Championships. In the RSD Regulations there is only one reference to Continental Championships, which says under:

5. RACING RULES COMMITTEE

5.2 The Chairman of the Racing Rules Committee may amend any existing rule by means the Standard Sailing Instructions at any time with immediate effect in response to experience gained at World, Regional or Continental Championships, that has highlighted a shortcoming to an existing rule. Such an amendment shall be subject to approval of the Emergency Committee as provided for in Article 7.8 of the Constitution.

So all appearances are that Continental Championships are the domain of the Class Association(s) in much the same way that National and Regional Championships belong to the individual MNAs, DMs and NCAs except as there may be any references in the MoU (which only seems to require the organization of IOM Class regattas)

Our own Class Championship Regulations then say:

5. CHAMPIONSHIPS
5.1 The IOM Class may hold a World Championship biennially.
5.2 The IOM Class may hold a Continental Championship biennially in the year when there is no World Championship. Continental Championships already agreed are:
(i) European
(ii) North America
(iii) South America
(iv) Asia
(v) Africa
(vi) Oceania

So, out of all this. We are entitled by ISAF, via ISAF-RSD (or maybe the other way around) to hold annual World Championships but via our own Class Championship Regulations have limited ourselves to every other year and have permitted ourselves to hold Continental Championships in the off years. Equally, the latest changes permit ourselves to hold multiple Continentals as opposed to the old wording that indicated that maybe we could only have one and that had been traditionally assigned to Europe. The new wording simply expands the definition of what is a continent and follows the form of the ISAF definitions of a continent, although not the actual definition (we have more continents defined)

The ISAF-RSD agreement (dated 2003) contains no reference to Continentals or even continents.

So this will explain how we have conducted Continental Championships in the past and why we have Worlds (other than cost, travel, time and all of those kinds of constraints) only every other year and Continentals (now able to be plural) in the off years.

Hope this helps close this one out.

This information was fairly easy to find for a sailing regulation neophyte like me.
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Post by Roy648 » 21 Nov 2009, 05:56

Thanks Barry for a comprehensive posting.

With what has been going on in the last few weeks I thought it appropriate to stay on the sidelines for the time being.

There is one document you have not mentioned which explicitly gives ICAs the right to hold World, Continental and Regional Championships
-
http://radiosailing.org/pdf/RRACIC.PDF (section 5.4). Whilst this is under the guise of the IYRU-MYRD and is dated 1995 one would think that the organisational successions maintains its validity.

Obviously, the new RSD has a lot of work to do to update documents but be assured that it is not my intention, as Chairman of the Racing Rules Committee, to place any new restrictions on classes. In fact my intention is to seriously investigate ways that can make World, Continental and Regional Championships more attainable by all classes.

Whilst FRA must be admired for having the confidence to prepare a regatta with the budget presented (particularly the degree of operating deficit) it must be recognised that very few areas of the world could even contemplate such an exercise. The Racing Rules Committee will be investigating all possible avenues that could provide opportunities to reduce the cost of organising and competing in major Radio Sailing Regattas.

Please note I use the word opportunities. Even if successful beyond expectations the solutions will only be opportunities. Each individual class, and particularly those with an established ICA, will be totally free to decide for themselves what is appropriate.
Roy Granich

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Post by Barry Fox CAN262 » 21 Nov 2009, 18:36

Thanks Roy.. It kind of confirms all of the other documentation pieces as well, I think.

As a general observation, this helps point out how difficult it is to know that you have found all the references for any particular subject. We ( the big we, not just for IOMs) don't have a very good method of cross referencing or tying various documents together so that someone relatively new to it all will likely have a problem finding everything they need to.

A daunting task to resolve.

Thanks again.
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Post by RoyL » 22 Nov 2009, 00:21

Also problematic (and important) is trying to determine which documents to rely on. For example, many of the IOMICA election procedures are contained in a "draft" document that was never voted on and adopted by the membership. Other documents that have been cited in the past (like some of the "resolutions" from the Lester Gilbert era) appear likely to have not been properly enacted. And, this doesn't even touch on the issue of how to reconcile and track together the RSD/IOMICA agreement with the IOMICA Constitution with the IOMICA Regulations with the Class Rules, etc. etc.

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Post by Roy648 » 22 Nov 2009, 05:32

Barry
We ( the big we, not just for IOMs) don't have a very good method of cross referencing or tying various documents together so that someone relatively new to it all will likely have a problem finding everything they need to.

A daunting task to resolve
How right you are !!!

In fact, I need to withdraw my comments regarding the RRACIC.PDF providing explicit approval for Continental Championships.

RSD regulations 10 - 16 have incorporated most aspects of that document (and are in fact titled as the document). HOWEVER, they no longer mention rights to hold championships (be it World, Continental or Regional) - simply requirements for notifying, reporting etc of such.

I am somewhat perplexed as to how requirements for notification, reporting and response etc can be possible when the event itself is not authorised in the first place.

I believe this to be an oversight as the equivalent ISAF regulations (18.2 and 18.10) do have this explicit approval.

As for Continentals, the way I see it these are not correctly sanctioned by the RSD. The advantage of this is that requirements for officials etc are then not specifically required so these events could possibly be organised to a lesser degree of officialdom – not saying they should but simply highlighting the situation.

The Wolds situation is slightly different as it is covered in the IOMICA-RSD Agreement.

I do not believe that at this stage further discussion in this forum would serve much purpose except to complicate further an already complicated situation. To this end I will be contacting you direct to see what needs/can be resolved.
Roy Granich

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Post by Tony Edwards » 24 Nov 2009, 19:18

Olivier,

Just to bring this thread back on track are you able to give a little more detail about this venue please. For example, where is the sailing water at Pierrelatte?
TonyE GBR75

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Post by Olivier Cohen » 24 Nov 2009, 21:00

Hi Tony,

You can look at the venue on that map.

http://maps.google.fr/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&h ... 4&t=h&z=15

We will soon put online the questionnaire with more informations.

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Post by Tony Edwards » 24 Nov 2009, 21:37

Thanks for the links/clues Olivier.

It looks a lovely piece of water from Google height!
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Post by Olivier Cohen » 24 Nov 2009, 22:11

A few pictures of the (cold and windy) 2008 Tricastin cup

http://pgmodelisme.free.fr/pierrelatte-sin/

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Re: IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 04 Dec 2009, 11:26

IOM Euro 2010 in Pierrelatte fully confirmed by FFV (FRA MNA)

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Re: IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 11 Feb 2010, 11:06

You will find on http://www.iomclass.org/ preliminary informations and allocation of places for 2010 European Championships.

NOR will be published within a few weeks.

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Re: IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 24 Mar 2010, 21:26

NOR is published http://www.iomclass.org/2010/03/23/2010 ... nship-nor/

Entry form will follow soon

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Re: IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 13 Apr 2010, 12:07


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Re: IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 21 Jun 2010, 15:59

Just a reminder, entry forms have to be sent before June 24th.
NCA can send more entry forms than what is allocated on stage 1.

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Re: IOM European Championships 2010 => FRA Pierrelatte

Post by Olivier Cohen » 02 Jul 2010, 16:19

Competitors list after allocation of places available !

http://ec-iom-2010.ek.la/

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