Help with HMS 2007

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Alfonso
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Help with HMS 2007

Post by Alfonso » 25 Mar 2010, 18:24

Rereading the HMS 2007 I get one doubt and that is why I am asking for help.

The HMS 2007 clearly makes a difference between the order of finishing, which is used to promote the boats, and the scoring of the boats, were for example a boat which is DSQ in the A fleet gets one more point than the last boat in the lowest heat would have scored if all the boats competing in the event had finished correctly.

Taking this fact in mind I read the Time Out Limit (TOL) section which is in the Advice Notes and I understand that the boats that are still racing when the 5 minutes TOL runs out they are scored as if they had finished. Is this corrrect?

Roy648
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Roy648 » 28 Mar 2010, 22:23

Alfonso,

I am not sure what your query is as you have stated the correct situation in your question. It also appears, from your post, that you believe there may be a link between the points a DSQ in A Heat receives and the number of finishers in a heat.

First the DSQ, is a you state Number of ENTRIES plus 1. So even if it is at a late part of the event and there are say 10 Permanent Withdrawals the DSQ still scores Number of Entries + 1
b) DNC boats removed from those scheduled to sail and boats recorded as BFD, DSQ, DNE or DGM
shall score one more point than the last boat in the lowest heat would have scored if all the boats
competing in the event had finished correctly.
The number of finishers does not come into the calculations - it is assumed that everyone else finished correctly.

Example :
Alfonso and Roy have an incident in A Heat in an event with 84 Entries. Roy is in the wrong but decides to take try an bluff his way through a protest. Roy looses the protest and as a result scores 85 points.

It would have been a better choice for Roy to consider the consequences and to withdraw after finishing to score a RAF which would have been only 21 points.

As you can see the points for DSQ are a big disincentive to take matters to protest (and thus hold up racing for everyone else).

With regard to the Time Out Limit, it would appear that the concept of extending the Time Out until only 4 boats remain and then scoring them on the water is not so much one of saying these boat cannot finish but one of determining which boats are to be relegated. Of course, this would need to be adjusted to 6 boats if using Schedule "C" with 6 boat Promotion.

HTH
Roy Granich

Alfonso
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Alfonso » 29 Mar 2010, 11:01

Hi Roy,

Thank you for your explanation. In fact my main concern is the Time Out Limit regulation, in this section the HMS 2007 says that if when the TOL runs out and there are still 4 boats racing the PRO shall “record their places on the water … as if they had finished at that point”.

What I would like to know is the score of those boats. Do they get DNF points or they get the points as if they had finished and in the order that it is suppose they would have finished?

For example, David finishes first of the A fleet and 5 minutes later Olivier, Barry, Pedro and me are still racing. Olivier is almost crossing the finishing line, Barry is rounding the gate in leeward and Pedro and me are still on the run (I am clear astern of Pedro). Assuming that there is no other competitor DSQ, OCS, DNS or DNC in that heat and that there was 20 competitors in the heat, do we (Olivier, Barry, Pedro and me) get 21 points or Olivier gets 17, Barry 18, Pedro 19 and me 20? :?

Roy648
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Roy648 » 29 Mar 2010, 21:28

Hi Alfonso,

With all versions of HMS and Stollery before that I have always believed it to be actual place on the water "as if they have finished".
Of the remainder, if there are than 4 boats or fewer still racing on the water, immediately record their places on the water in
conjunction with the umpires/observers as if they had finished at that point.
So what HMS is really saying is for those boats still sailing the course is effectively progressively shortened until each boat has finished - hope that makes sense as it does sound a bit strange.

So your points of Olivier gets 17, Barry 18, Pedro 19 and me 20? is correct.

HTH
Roy Granich

Alfonso
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Alfonso » 30 Mar 2010, 13:20

I have to admit that I had always thought like you, but recently we had a race with very light winds and I had to look to this regulation more carefully. This is the problem of being Chairman of a NCA, that instead being at the bar when there is no wind you have to be reading the HMS. :wink:

The reasoning I follow was:

Section 3.4 of HMS 2007 says:
Scoring shall be from the Order of Finishing Places for each race using the RRS A4 Low Point Scoring System…
According with the Appendix A RRS:
A4.1 Each boat starting and finishing and not thereafter retiring, being penalized or given redress shall be scored points as follows:
As the word finishing is written in italics we shall understand that
A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error made at the finishing line, under rule 28.1.
Therefore my conclusion is that with the HMS 2007 the boats shall be scored using Appendix A and according with this appendix to score a boat she must has finished, finally a boat finishes onlywhen she crossed the line, so HMS can not and do not use the fiction “as if they had finished” to score the boats. I think this fiction can be used to know the finishing order of the boats in order to know the boats that will be demoted into the previous heat but not to score the boats.

Following my example, Olivier, Barry, Pedro and me will get 21 points and we all will race in the B heat in the next race, but if David were finally DSQ in that heat for any reason then Olivier will stay in A fleet and Barry, Pedro, me and David (in that order) will be demoted to B fleet.

Does it make sense?

Definitely I should have taken the beer? :?

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Lester » 30 Mar 2010, 17:55

HMS 2007 needs the Sailing Instructions before it can work correctly. Just a little wrinkle not yet fixed (smile)...

For example, the MYA SIs say
2.7 At the expiry of the Time Out Limit:
(a) if 4 or fewer boats are still racing on the water they shall be recorded in accordance with 2.8, or
(b) if more than 4 boats are still racing on the water the Time Out Limit shall be extended until only 4 boats remain racing on the water, at which point they shall be recorded in accordance with 2.8.

2.8 Boats failing to finish within the Time Out Limit shall be recorded as DNF, OCS, DNS or DNC in that order, as appropriate. DNF boats still racing on the water at the end of the Time Out Limit will be recorded with finishing places according to their order on the water. These boats will be scored according to their finishing places. SSI 2.6, 2.7 & 2.8 changes RRS 35, A3 and A5.
So the key instructions are "DNF boats still racing on the water at the end of the Time Out Limit will be recorded with finishing places according to their order on the water. These boats will be scored according to their finishing places." As far as I can see, the four of you will be scored 17, 18, 19, 20.

For example, the IOMICA SIs for the IOM Euros in Dubrovnik 2008 say,
9.4 Boats failing to finish within the time out limit shall be recorded DNF, OCS, DNS or DNC in that order, as appropriate.
Hence you would all have been scored 21.

(Might be worth noting that the "Advice Notes" have no status within a protest room. Only HMS, SIs, NoR, RRS, Class Rules, ERS, and Class Championship Rules have status as explained in the SIs.)
Lester Gilbert
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Roy648
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Roy648 » 30 Mar 2010, 22:27

I would have to agree with Lester on this one.

Alfonso, your and my original understandings are both correct and incorrect. It all depends on the specifics (or lack of specifics) of the Sailing Instructions.

We would all agree that this is not a perfect situation, but it is what we currently have.

It probably leads onto the area that is really important, that of determining in the future what we really want to achieve in Radio Sailing. Do we want to be in the situation where we continually need to adapt rules that were conceived for manned sailing (and as a result have Sailing Instructions 10 pages long) or do we do a lot of work to determine where we are different and somehow come up with a subset of rules that work simply by reference to our Racing System.

Sure, this is what Appendix E is supposed to achieve, but as this thread illustrates that Appendix would need to be expanded considerably if we are to cover every aspect.

Whatever the final outcome it would be best that it is applied consistently across all regattas.

As Lester says, HMS 2007 can be considered as work in progress, and perhaps the specifics mentioned can be incorporated into the main body of the document. After all, it is the Racing System we use so these situations should be able to be covered simply by stating the use of HMS 20XX.
Roy Granich

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Lester » 31 Mar 2010, 08:53

Hi Roy

It would be terrific if RSD could provide revised 'standard' Sailing Instructions which tie in with the latest RRS and with the latest ISAF Cases. (Heck, it would be phenomenal if RSD could gain control of Appendix E, since some updates are needed there as well!)
Roy648 wrote:... perhaps the specifics mentioned can be incorporated into the main body of the [HMS] document
There is an issue here which is worth mentioning. These 'specifics' were in fact *removed* from HMS some years back, and placed into the Sailing Instructions. From a race management and event Judging perspective, the SIs is where details of time outs properly belong, and when they were in HMS there were numerous confusions and difficulties (usually because the SIs contradicted what was written in HMS). As a result, now all that remains in HMS is the statement that time outs do not apply to seeding races. For everything else to do with time outs, the Sailing Instructions need to be consulted. Once everyone knows that, I think the system is about as good as it can get currently.

[Edit to grammar]
Last edited by Lester on 31 Mar 2010, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Stollery
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Peter Stollery » 31 Mar 2010, 11:06

I've finally 'given in' to the IOMICA Forum as I can add some history to this thread.

I re-wrote HMS in 2007 to accommodate IOMICA's desire at the time for 6 boat promotion. The re-write was done to suit both MYA and IOMICA as I was very keen that the racing system did not become fragmented with varying versions developing. I believe that consistency is important between national and international events, unless of course an NCA decides to operate a completely different racing system which is, of course, entirely up to them.

HMS 2007 was written in the first instance for the MYA and was developed with the MYA Standard Sailing Instructions (HMS is MYA copyright after all). As Lester mentioned, this allowed all the SSI bits to be removed from HMS so that HMS was just the racing system. HMS 2007 was approved by IOMICA prior to the Marseille Worlds but they did not change their Sailing Instructions to suit the changes made at MYA level and so the Guidance Notes that are attached to HMS 2007 relate to the MYA Sailing Instructions . This is only relevant in a couple of minor areas but Alfonso has found one of them - the Time Out Limit. Lester and Roy have summarised this well above with MYA events giving places on the water to DNF boats when only 4 or less remain sailing and IOMICA giving straight DNF's. The important difference is that the MYA Sailing Instructions amend the RRS to allow the scoring of DNF boats in their place on the water. I did point out to IOMICA in the build up to the 2007 Worlds that the Guidance notes needed to be amended if the places on the water procedure was to be dropped in favour of straight DNF's, but it did not get changed and I subsequently forgot about it until now. It is important to note that it is only the Guidance Notes where a slight annomoly exists. The system iteslf is fine.

Peter.

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Lester » 31 Mar 2010, 12:41

Hi Peter

Great to see you on-line and posting into the IOM Forum. History most welcome and very helpful!
Lester Gilbert
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Alfonso
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Alfonso » 31 Mar 2010, 13:34

Lester wrote:(Might be worth noting that the "Advice Notes" have no status within a protest room. Only HMS, SIs, NoR, RRS, Class Rules, ERS, and Class Championship Rules have status as explained in the SIs.)
HMS 2007 wrote:Race committees are recommended to read the rules of this system in conjunction with the HMS 2007 Advice Notes that are part of this document.
Hi Lester,
Why do you understand that the Advice Notes are not part of the HMS?

In my understanding the Advice Notes are part of the HMS and therefore MYA SI 2.7 probably is not necessary because it just repeat what the HMS already says, but I agree with you that the section 2.8 is absolutely necessary, specially the reference to the rules of the RRS that are modified.

Regarding the first part of the SI 2.8, I prefer the solution used in Dubrovnik :wink: , I think it is more fair and less complicated for the race officer.

Hi Roy,

I think that if we want to fix this particular “problem” of the HMS with an amendment to the Appendix E, instead with the SIs, we may not need to make a big change in the Appendix E. May be a change in the definition of finishing will sort it out, although, as Lester has said, there are some other issues that may be updated in the next edition of the RRS. If you want IOMICA is willing to help.

Hi Peter,

It is very nice reading you in this forum. Thank you for the HMS, I think that racing with HMS is much more fun than with the previous system, whose name I don’t even remember.

But taking the advantage of your presence here I would like to ask you two questions:
Peter wrote:This is only relevant in a couple of minor areas but Alfonso has found one of them.
Which is the other one? :wink:

I have a second doubt regarding HMS. Imagine that all the boats of the A heat finish on time but 19 of them rounded one of the marks by the wrong side. Where it is explained the boats that will be demoted?

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Lester » 31 Mar 2010, 17:54

Alfonso wrote:
Lester wrote:(Might be worth noting that the "Advice Notes" have no status within a protest room. Only HMS, SIs, NoR, RRS, Class Rules, ERS, and Class Championship Rules have status as explained in the SIs.)
HMS 2007 wrote:Race committees are recommended to read the rules of this system in conjunction with the HMS 2007 Advice Notes that are part of this document.
Hi Lester,
Why do you understand that the Advice Notes are not part of the HMS? In my understanding the Advice Notes are part of the HMS
Hi Alfonso

Well, I did not say that the advice notes are not 'part of HMS', they clearly are in some sense (smile), even if what is meant is that they occur in the same document file as the HMS rules! Instead, I was careful to say that the 'advice notes' would not have any status in the protest room. By this I meant that a Jury would not regard anything said in the 'advice notes' as being a 'rule' or as having the status of a 'rule'. Their content consists of advice, suggestions, comments, elaborations, and interpretations. All excellent stuff, and very helpful. But they are not rules: they are not constructed as rules, they do not impose obligations, they do not give rights, they do not specify penalties, and they do not govern the event. As they say, they are there to give advice to the Race Committee.

Alfonso wrote:Imagine that all the boats of the A heat finish on time but 19 of them rounded one of the marks by the wrong side. Where it is explained the boats that will be demoted?
Assuming four boats are demoted, the same problem occurs if 5 boats round on the wrong side (DNF), or 5 boats are found to be OCS, or 5 boats retire after finishing (RAF). As far as I can see, HMS does not try and deal with such situations. I guess that it is up to the Race Committee to decide what it thinks is best, and it is up to the sailors to seek redress if they do not agree. So it most probably ends up in the protest room and a decision by the Jury...
Lester Gilbert
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Alfonso » 01 Apr 2010, 00:35

Hi Lester,

I see the difference and I agree with you that may be most parts of the advice notes are written in a special way to be a rule, but other parts they look like a rule, like for example the TOL, so the jury should treat it like that as far as the HMS is specify as a rule by the NOR.

Regarding the situation I mentioned of 19 boats rounding the mark by the wrong side, I remember that we lived a very similar situation in the last European in Fleetwood, but I don't remember which was the solution. Your opinion is that the RO will take the decision and the Jury will have the last word.

I thought that in these situations, which are not very strange, the Appendix A (breaking of ties) would apply, but may be it would be interesting that the HMS will clarify the question.

May be Peter has a better opinion...

Henry Farley
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Henry Farley » 02 Apr 2010, 13:00

Perhaps I can shed some more light on HMS history.
There can be little doubt that HMS together with appropriate sailing instructions is the best sysem yet devised for managing many radio controlled yachts.
There are however situations that pose challenges especially to those who do not use it regularly.
This thread has touched upon some of them
1 How to handle the situation where there are more than sufficient boats that merit demotion or promotion.
Although I have never experienced it I have always believed that this amounts to a tie break situation.
MYA SSI 8.5 plus HMS 1.6 deals with this and is pretty close to RRS A8.
It could argued that past performance, which is what A8 amounts to, has nothing to do with such a situation. Thus it might be that drawing numbers out of a hat would be fairer and probaly quicker in the case of selecting from 19!
Interestngly HMS, and it's predecesor EORS, used to prevent any boat that was DNF etc in a heat from being promoted thereby lessening the problem.
When HMS was adopted by RSD this was dropped for some reason which I don't remember.
2 Awarding notional finishing places based on positions on the water (MYA SSI 2.8 ) is popular with most UK skippers especially at club events, but it does have its challenges.
How do you deal with boats that have missed a mark?
There are lots of scenarios here.
Once the heat is over and the boats that have missed a mark are on the bank they have not sailed the right course and will be protested by the race committee.
On being told they will either retire (RAF) or take their chances with the protest jury and probably get DSQ.
If the boats are still sailing when the allotted time runs out there is a problem.
At any time a boat may correct its course and the finish judge has no way of knowing whether or not a boat was about to do so. Thus giving it a position on the water may be very difficult.
I am ahead of you and we have both just missed the final mark before the line.
If we both now turn back you will be ahead and had the heat continued, would be likely to finish before me. Throw in our positions with other boats and it gets even more complicated.
However the boats that miss the a mark will still be entitled to a notional finishing position as they are stil sailing lunlike those that have already been removed from the water.

These sorts of anomalies caused the intial version of HMS, when it replaced EORS in about 1997, to drop 'postions on the water' and replace it with a variabe time out limit that depended on the time taken for the first boat to cross the line.
Several different versions of this were tried, some horribly complicated, and became unpopular in the UK.
A skipper who just missed the line by a hair's breadth was unhappy to receive the same score as one who was a very long way behind.

Hence for HMS 2006, which was used for the Marblehead WC that year, positions on the water were brought back but transferred to the SIs.

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Lester » 02 Apr 2010, 13:20

Hi Henry

Using tie-breaking to deal with the problem of which boats to demote if, say, 5 are all OCS or whatever, is what I'd do as a Race Officer. It was done that way, as I recall, at the Euros in St Cyr in 2000, when the first boat finished in one of the "A" heats and the other 19 boats were timed out. The 4 boats demoted were the boats with the highest points total from the previous races... There were then 4 requests for redress (smile), and the Jury agreed with the Race Committee that this 'count-back' was the 'best' way of resolving the problem.
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Henry Farley
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Henry Farley » 02 Apr 2010, 13:29

Hi Lester,
I guess some form of tie breaking is about the only option.
A different jury might have reached a different conclusion about the system used at St Cyr.
Faced with an unfamiliar situation who knows what juries will do
I doubt that anyone would challenge drawing from a hat but then.....!

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Lester » 02 Apr 2010, 14:35

Henry Farley wrote:I doubt that anyone would challenge drawing from a hat but then.....!
Hi Henry

I'd certainly challenge that! If I was a competitor, a Race Officer, or a Jury member, I'd regard a lottery as the option of last resort rather than the first choice!
Lester Gilbert
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Henry Farley
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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Henry Farley » 02 Apr 2010, 17:19

I'd certainly challenge that! If I was a competitor, a Race Officer, or a Jury member, I'd regard a lottery as the option of last resort rather than the first choice![/quote]

Hi Lester,
Ok to be more serious.
I don't see that the previous race necessarily has anything to do with the current one for tie breaking.
Take a case where those out of time get DNF.
Suppose that in the previous race I was in a lower heat and have now had a good run after a disaster which dropped me down. Meanwhile you were in a higher heat and have now dropped down to this one. When the time expires I am near the line while you are way back. Based on the last race as a tie break you get preference. Is that a fair solution?
Of course that is a hypothetical case and many can be invented.
Taking the case where 19 sailed the wrong course, a viable solution might have been to retain the winner, who got it right, and get the others to race again for the remaining places.
The real point is that the fair solution must depend on the actual situation of the case in point.
I expect that there are situations where whatever is done will not be completely fair.
Maybe in some cases even drawing out of a hat is as good as anything but I don't expect everyone to agree!

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Re: Help with HMS 2007

Post by Alfonso » 06 Apr 2010, 11:20

Having read the different opinions I think that the conclusion of this topic could be:

1º When the idea is to score boats even they haven’t finished then the SI shall modify the RRS and state the changes.
2º When the idea is that boats that haven’t finished should be scored like DNF then there is no need to modify the SI, but there will be a contradiction between the HMS and the RRS, where RRS is the relevant document.
3º In this scenario the boats will be demoted according with their theoretical positions and no modification is needed whether in the SI or in the HMS.
4º The HMS or the SI shall clarify the solution in case of a multiple tie for promoting or demoting boats.

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