2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

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Neil Armstrong
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2012 European Championships / 2013 World Championship

Post by Neil Armstrong » 26 Oct 2010, 20:29

With the 2011 West Kirby world championships only 6 months away i have been looking for the previous balance sheets from World and European championships but cannot find any, i cannot imagine these do not exist and it is probably me looking in the wrong place, could somebody point me in the right direction please.

At recent events there has been a live webcam streaming the races to us, obviously this is extremely expensive. I am unsure if this is paid for by the competitors from their entry fees or indeed if IOMICA have been using the £10 per boat levy they impose on European and World Championships. I imagine it will be paid for by IOMICA as i cannot imagine what else they would use the £700.00 approx they receive each year as it is only a near virtual organisation they have to run on this budget.
Last edited by Neil Armstrong on 23 Nov 2010, 17:56, edited 3 times in total.

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Olivier Cohen
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Olivier Cohen » 27 Oct 2010, 16:51

Hi Neil (real name ?)

You will soon get with AGM report IOMICA finances status.
FYI, IOMICA fee for next year has not been discussed yet with organisers.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 27 Oct 2010, 18:29

Thanks for your answer Oliver (good name) but it does not really answer the questions.

a. Balance sheets from previous Championships?
b. Does IOMICA pay for the live footage or is it the competitors?
c. Where does £700.00 (approx) go each year?

Neil.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Olivier Cohen » 28 Oct 2010, 00:42

Neil Armstrong wrote:Thanks for your answer Oliver (good name) but it does not really answer the questions.

a. Balance sheets from previous Championships?
b. Does IOMICA pay for the live footage or is it the competitors?
c. Where does £700.00 (approx) go each year?

Neil.
Neil, were you in one of those competitions ? I can't remind your name was in.

a. Awaited for last Euro, never got it for Barbados
b. Not IOMICA, but not so expensive (will be in budget awaited)
c. You will see it soon after AGM.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 28 Oct 2010, 13:38

Hi Olivier,

no, i have never been to a big championship, do not agree that the other competitors would all pay £300.00+ to watch me at the back of the fleet learning how to sail an IOM, a bit like what happens at current big championships.

I suspect that the French Euros were filmed by a local club and this is why it was so cheap, by the way, the coverage was excellant. But in Barbados they had to pay a professional outfit and this would cost serious money, probably why they did not have the budget to supply live footage and dinners from the entry fee.

I must thank all the competitors that paid for the video, most enjoyable but a little unfair.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by RoyL » 28 Oct 2010, 18:09

This has been a little hard to follow and I'm not sure what is exactly the point, but from my years on the IOMICA Executive, I can assure anyone that cares that the entry fees collected for an IOM World Championship don't even come close to covering the costs of the event. A good rule of thumb is that it takes somewhere from US $50,000 to $75,000 to put on a World's with or without video. This basically means that the host club/country has to find a lot of sponsorship or donation money. To suggest then that the competitors are "unfairly" being made to "pay" for a video stream of racing is just not true.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 01 Nov 2010, 14:21

Just trying to get a few answers and start a discussion on the future of the World and European Championships.
Trying to ascertain the real reasons why we struggle to get countries to host these races. And indeed if IOMICA could help out a little more.
Seems obvious to me that the stumbling block is money, you may receive £22,800 in entry fees(76x£300) but where do you get the sponsors to put up the other £20,000 plus in this day and age.
Why do we struggle so much to get an entry of 76 boats, i think in the most recent European Championships held in France there were 72 boats that included about 20 French skippers, and this was an entry that in the end anybody, regardless of ranking or Nationality could enter.
How does the host Nation budget for 4 or more boats down in the budgeted entry of 76.
Maybe limit the entry to 50 odd boats is the solution, at least you know you can comfortably achieve this target and you can set an achievable budget.. The limited entry may also attract a few more of the top skippers as there will be more sailing and less watching the likes of myself in E fleet learning how to sail my IOM at a World Championship.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Richard Batchelor » 02 Nov 2010, 00:19

Being from the "Ends of the Earth" :D down here in NZ,I'm always surprised at the costs mentioned to hold one of these contests.Without divulging any commercially sensitive information, is anyone able to show a simple breakdown of the costs involved.Please do not take this question as criticism in any form,just a request for info.Having been involved with running this years national comp in Tauranga,if we had been required to find a budget as large as mentioned I doubt the regatta would have happened.
:oops: Ok,should have read the thread more carefully,I see the question has already been put :oops: Still interested in the answer however.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 02 Nov 2010, 10:28

Hi Richard,
people from inside and outside the sport are always amazed at the cost of these races. Although not complete here is a list of some of the expenditure costs, i will let you fill in the actual figures as i cannot find them anywhere.
JUDGES: accomodation, travel, expenses
OFFICIALS: accomodation, travel
MEALS (5 lunch, 2 dinner) 76 competitors, officials, judges
PRIZES: top 10, momento for judges and officials
HIRE: hire of venue, portakabin, scaffold, pontoon, radios, outboard etc
PUBLICITY: banners etc
SET UP COSTS: secretarial cost,race program,bibs,buoys etc
BANK CHARGES
INSURANCE
IOMICA LEVY: was £10 per boat

So it is to no amazement that people choose to go to there Nationals where they will pay in the region of £30 for 3 days racing although you must remember you do rely heavily on volunteers for these events.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Tony Edwards » 02 Nov 2010, 21:16

It is very interesting to see Neil Armstrongs (real name Apollo One!) questions and the lack of specific replies on the past accounts. If as Roy L comments the total cost of these events far exceed the income does that mean that previous events have been excused the IOMICA levy? I supose that the answer will be in the accounts! :shock:
TonyE GBR75

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by David Turton » 02 Nov 2010, 23:28

IOMICA receives an amount per competitor at each Euro and World Championship. Generally about $25aud depending on exchange rates. The organising authority of the event is responsible for all income and expenditure of that event and complying with the requirements of running an international competition. It is that organising authorities business if they wish to post there accounts for the event. Experience in the past shows there is little surplus and if there isn't, shortfall has been covered by the generosity of sponsors and donors. IOMICA accts are done annually and only income is these fees plus some interest on monies invested in bank term deposit. Expences to date have been web costs, transport of world and euro trophies. I'm waiting to recieve monies from last Euro's any day and then i'll prepare interim accts showing currrent position for AGM. Last accounts posted were for AGM held in Barabdos.

There is a few threads within these forums outlining costs. Depending on where the regatta is drives costs of officials. I.e it more expensive to get officials to Australia and Barbados than to Europe. As a properly constituted international Jury and Umpire group must come from a number of different countries, Ithink its 5. This is a significant cost generally.
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Tony Edwards » 03 Nov 2010, 11:42

David, Many thanks for the response and explanation of the budget. I am sure that it must be a bit of a nightmare pulling the information together for the accounts of this sort of organisation. I don't envy you the task!

Neil Armstrong does have a good point. And, a giant leap for IOMICA would be to assist with the development costs of the video and its transmission for world championship events. A quick results service on the web are one thing but the video streaming from recent events has been watched all over the world by large numbers with great enthusiasm and is a major way to promote the class and sport of radio sailing to a wider audience. This wider promotion also improves the possibilities for event sponsorship. I think that the Euros from Pierrelatte were transmitted through http://www.justintv.com which relays many sporting events.

Do you think that there is any way in which IOMICA could contribute towards the funding of the video for the WCs as an investment in its own future? :?:
TonyE GBR75

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 03 Nov 2010, 16:45

I also feel that IOMICA could help out a little more than they do at present, a contribution to the 'live' footage would be great as it is a great advertisement for the big IOMICA ran events.
I am very worried about future World and European championships and exactly who will host them, we struggle now, if it were not for Barbados coming to the rescue in 2009 at the 11th hour there would of been no race. If it were not the MYA centenary year in 2011 would they be hosting the race, i doubt it.
IOMICA need to be pro-active on the subject of finding and helping hosts to run the big races before they end up like the Marblehead, A boat and 10R, all these classes have lost there World and European Championships in recent years.
The warning signs are all lit up for the IOM World and European Championships to go the same way unless there is change.
Web hosting and posting the trophies around must add up to about £200 per year tops, what about the other £500 per year.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Richard Batchelor » 03 Nov 2010, 19:43

Thanks all for your replies in regard to the costs.Even without a break down in actual figures I can now see where some big dollar items help to drive up the total expenditure.
New to the sport and ,as I say way down south,it didn't occur to me that the officials for the regatta's would be paid.
Is this the same for your respective National contests?
I suppose that we in NZ are lucky as mostly(all regattas I have attended)officials are voluntary.However we have a lot less distance to travel to events in a small country.
Providing an evening meal is something we do not do,lunch each day is provided.The evening meal must be a good way of getting competitors to mix and get to know each other a bit better.At the last regional contest we held there was a "pay as you go"after event drinks and meal organised.It was well attended and resulted in lots of new friends and a new interclub comp.
Venues have always been free of charge,mostly local body council owned,perhaps local councils in all areas could be approached to provide venues as a form of sponsorship at no cost.
As for the live video from events,GREAT IDEA.This should be a priority.People from the other side of the world tuning in to see the racing unfold live can do only one thing..increase participation...I don't know if it is already done(I haven't found it yet),a library of the days sailing for those that cannot watch live,due to time zones etc would be a great addition.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 03 Nov 2010, 21:29

Hi Richard,

once visited NZ, Christchurch, beautiful place. (great golf)

The UK nationals are all run by volunteers, even the judges if we can get them. Most venues are free of charge were we run the race and there is usually a pay as you go meal arranged for at least one of the nights which as you mention is a great time to catch up over a few beers..

The live streaming is very good and was watched by between 50 and 150 people at any one time from the recent Euros although i do feel the same as you about building up a library of races and then it does not matter which time zone you live in you can still manage to watch the whole event at your own convenience.
Last edited by Neil Armstrong on 04 Nov 2010, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 04 Nov 2010, 14:40

As it seems a little difficult to get hold of any Championship accounts or IOMICA yearly accounts and but for the exception of David and Olivier from IOMICA making any response, and even though you have managed over 950 posts between you and all visited the forum in the last day or two.

I would like to ask the question ' Who has volunteered to host the next Worlds and Euros (after West Kirby)?'

If the answer is 'Do not know' you know you have problems.

Not trying to be negative about all this but feel very strongly that things need to change before it is too late.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Olivier Cohen » 04 Nov 2010, 15:39

Neil Armstrong wrote:As it seems a little difficult to get hold of any Championship accounts or IOMICA yearly accounts and but for the exception of David and Olivier from IOMICA making any response, and even though you have managed over 950 posts between you and all visited the forum in the last day or two.

I would like to ask the question ' Who has volunteered to host the next Worlds and Euros (after West Kirby)?'

If the answer is 'Do not know' you know you have problems.

Not trying to be negative about all this but feel very strongly that things need to change before it is too late.
Next Euro : 2 countries have interest, but I won't tell you which as long as nothing is decided in these countries.
Next WC : Interest from 1 country

And for WC 2009, Spain was also volunteer, Barbados wasn't "at the 11th hour" as written above. Barbados was a choice by previous Exec.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 04 Nov 2010, 15:53

Hi Olivier,

i stand corrected over the 11th hour Barbados bid then.

I am a very happy person now i know you have lots of interest to host the European and World Championship in future years, now lets give those countries all the help we can to turn there initial interest into actually hosting the race.

A few ideas
1. IOMICA to help out with payment of video
2. Reduce the entry, this will certainly ensure you reach the maximum entry and not get stung for a shortfall of entry money which can be up to £2000.00 (Euros, 6x£330)
3. Get some sort of blue print of expenditure that although will need tweeking from country to country will give a good indication and save the host starting from scratch.
4. Get rid of all the lights and glitz and get back to basics with reasonable entry fees that even a junior could afford, long time since i saw an under 16 sailing at one of these events, Berlin probably,Stollery vs Astbury Bros.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Olivier Cohen » 04 Nov 2010, 18:27

I don't understand your first sentence, sorry for my english.

I await your ideas to reduce entry fee. Have you already organized an international event ? Are you the guy who can find sponsorship easily ? If yes, please contact Mark Dennis and Peter Stollery who will be certainly happy to include you in their team.

Anyway, you will see last EC budget soon, that will be close to a blue print considering commentaries from competitors.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 04 Nov 2010, 20:49

Although a lower entry fee would be good what i actually said was to reduce the entry, this in turn may well reduce the entry fee as you would not be paying such a high contingency fund to pay for the shortfall in competitors, just 6 short of 76 leaves you with a deficit of about £2000.00, this is a tab no host wants to pick up.

Indeed i am not the miracle sponsorship person (you assumed, guy) wish i was. Know Peter but not sure who Mark Dennis is.

What did you think of my ideas to help future hosts?

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by RoyL » 05 Nov 2010, 04:36

Now I'm really unclear what is going on here. Even though there has been no public call for possible hosts for the next IOMICA Worlds or Euro's, now we hear that two countries are interested in the Euro's and one is interested in the Worlds but the head of IOMICA Events "won't tell".....And no response on any of the questions posed here on how to control costs. Really hard to figure out what is going on.

All I know is that two year's ago under the previous IOMICA administration, it was pretty clear to everyone that the costs of holding an international IOMICA championship needed looking into. I thought/hoped that finding a solution to this problem would have been on the top of the new IOMICA Executive's list of things to "fix".

Maybe there is a plan but they also "won't tell" about it (lol). Unfortunately, this seems to be par for the course lately, there is very little information posted here anymore and virtually nothing from the IOMICA Exec.

Good luck Neil....

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 05 Nov 2010, 15:26

A few quotes from a long time ago, July 09 to be exact, 16 months ago.

Nigel said 'German NCA looked at holding the 2010 Euros but regulations by ISAF/IOMICA proved to be too much of a financial burden' JULY 09

Ray Granich said 'if costs cannot be addressed the outlook for the next 4-5 years is not pretty' JULY 09

Alfonso said 'i think we need a calm debate on the number of competitors in a World or continental championship'

These were all quotes from a previous thread i have just found.

The World and Continental Championships are the Flagship events for IOMICA, don't let them sink in the same way as other class's.

I feel that if i had mentioned a one word change in rule 14b, part 2, appendix H, section 4, i would of got a better response.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Olivier Cohen » 05 Nov 2010, 16:49

Thanks for those constructive notes.

Neil, my mail is on IOMICA website, please explain me how reducing entries could reduce cost for each competitor.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Alfonso » 05 Nov 2010, 20:14

RoyL wrote:All I know is that two year's ago under the previous IOMICA administration, it was pretty clear to everyone that the costs of holding an international IOMICA championship needed looking into. I thought/hoped that finding a solution to this problem would have been on the top of the new IOMICA Executive's list of things to "fix".
Hi Roy,

I hope you know that during this month is the ISAF Annual Conference and I think that tomorrow is the ISAF Classes Committee meeting. Unfortunately IOMICA is not represented and can not vote because it is not an ISAF Class but look this interesting submission sent by my country (unfortunately you have to copy and paste the whole address to see the submission)
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... [9413].pdf

This one is also interesting although will not help to reduce the cost of the championships. :wink:
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... [9437].pdf

May be if we are lucky the Appendix N of the next RRS will be different.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Hiljoball » 05 Nov 2010, 21:36

John Ball
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Hiljoball » 05 Nov 2010, 21:56

The first proposal if approved, will not help reduce the cost of the IOM Worlds. There are several issues.

First, the Worlds uses Umpires to make calls on the course. (A jury sits in a hearing room and hears protests, observes just call contact and leave the decisions to the skippers).

Second, the ISAF rules require that we have a ratio of umpires to competitors (heat size). That is to ensure enough umpires to view the whole course. As things happen fast in IOM, compared to full sized, it can be mentally exhausting on an umpire, and so we usually have a squad of about ten to patrol the course. That costs a lot of money.

Using fewer umpires would reduce the cost, at the expense of quality and burn out.

Having fewer competitors reduces the revenue, but does not change the heat size, and so the large number of umpires is still required.

Using a non-international squad (ie local volunteer sailors) would reduce the cost, but lower the standard, and would require changes to the regulations.

There have been calls on the forum to create an RC sailor based qualified pool of umpires. Somehow that would reduce costs?? It is also unrealistic. I was a Senior Judge in Canada for many years. That is below the level of National judge and further below International judge. To be recognized as a higher level judge requires attending may regattas as jurist, attending many seminars, and building a resume of experience and recognition.

We could change the cost of the event by running with local observers (not umpires) and a formal jury for hearings. . . but that would slow down the event as the hearings affecting promo/relegation would have to be held before the next heat. A tough call.

John
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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Olivier Cohen » 05 Nov 2010, 22:51

I agree totally with you John, except on this :
"Using a non-international squad (ie local volunteer sailors) would reduce the cost, but lower the standard, and would require changes to the regulations."

If above proposal pass, we could keep an International Jury, and add as much local umpires as necessary.
That would reduce the cost but not really the standard if well chosen. To be discussed, especially if it pass...

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 05 Nov 2010, 23:47

Reducing the entry fee is important but securing the race is far more important, to secure the race you have to secure the entry, to secure the entry you simply reduce the entry.

At the moment the host has no idea how many will enter and could end up with shortfalls of £3000.00. 70 boats entered for the recent Euros and this was open to anyone in the world that wanted to sail.

To reduce the entry fee, the most important and obvious way is to sail the event at a location that already has the infrastructure in place, who needs the extra costs of boat storage facility, toilets, scaffold, motor boat, portakabin for protest/scorer etc.

Why do you think the last RM worlds was so much cheaper, because it was held at Fleetwood, the best model yacht facility in the world.

Alfonso, it would be helpful if you could give us your oppinion or some answers on any of the questions that have been asked on this thread and not use the 'judges' as a smokescreen

How do you know you would be making a significant reduction in entry fees by reducing the amount of judges when there seems to be no accounts for previous championships and it looks like we had to go to Barbados to get any accounts for IOMICA.

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by RoyL » 06 Nov 2010, 01:47

To follow up on how reducing the number of entrants can lower costs consider the following--if you have less entries, you have fewer fleets which means more racing in a shorter time. A shorter event is a less expensive event.

And Alfonso.. its so infrequent that we ever hear anything from you or the Exec anymore, its nice to see you posting here even if it's an attempt to put me down or to respond to the issues being raised by Neil by blaming the whole thing on IOMICA not being a direct ISAF affiliate. (lol)

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Re: IOMICA Fees

Post by Neil Armstrong » 06 Nov 2010, 11:34

I did not understand the relevance of Alfonso's response to this thread when i read it but now realise it was just a cheap swipe about stuff in the past that he did obviously disagrees with. What is the relevance of the age of a judge in this thread, so we make it harder for 'salty red trousers' but you also make it more difficult for the likes of Peter Johnson, one of the best in the business. Just do not understand.

Lets try and keep the thread on track and focus on securing for future hosts and maybe even reducing entry costs.

What about a Monday to Friday race with no lay day (allows two weekends for travel to and fro)
9am - 5pm sailing
Reduce to 4 fleets
IOMICA to help with finding sponsorship
Get rid of the £10 per boat levy
No live streaming
No goody bags
No opening ceremony

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