The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Discuss class championship regulations, sailing instructions, umpiring, observing, scoring software, fleet racing systems, forthcoming international events, etc

Moderator: Rob Walsh

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Hiljoball » 09 Jan 2013, 15:44

Lester wrote:
Olivier Cohen wrote:Besides, are we really allowed to change identification on sails by SI ? As appendix G can't be changed...
As far as I know, Appendix E can be changed by SIs, including E8.
Hi Lester,

The problem with use of the SI to nullify the drop leading zero is that it would have to be in the SI of every regatta everywhere. You may show up at a regatta that does not have such an instruction and your sails may not be legal.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Marko Majic
Posts: 57
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 17:56
Location: CAN 16

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Marko Majic » 09 Jan 2013, 20:55

Lester wrote:As far as I know, Appendix E can be changed by SIs, including E8.
I'm not so sure about that Lester... I mean, sure, I do believe that SIs can amend RRS (in general)... However, SIs cannot amend CRs (except with written permission of the ICA, I think?) and C.8.3 clearly states that "Identification shall comply with the RRS." (not RRS as modified by SIs or any other possible exception)... So, it seems pretty clear that, as far as identification on sails are concerned, CRs (which cannot be amended by SIs) will force a fallback to the original RRS verbiage regardless of what you put in the SIs...

In general, I would tend to think that if RRS is invoked by CRs then the applicable referenced rules cannot be amended by SIs... However, I do think C.8.3 is the only such instance (in Part II or CRs).

Besides, as John astutely pointed out, this is NOT the kind of rule you'd want to arbitrarily amend in SIs - it may be bad enough for some people to have to remove/erase leading zeros (once) but to have to put it back/take it off based on the regatta and what's written (or not written) in the SIs would be much worse...

Marko
Marko Majic
CAN 16

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Hiljoball » 09 Jan 2013, 22:04

The AUS National championship is under way right now and is the first major event held under the new 2013-2016 RRS. They have an SI that overrides E8.b.3 to allow existing sails to use the leading zero. So they are overriding E8 as it relates to the class rules.

A few days ago I prepared a document to be submitted to the IOMICA Technical committee for IOM (or to the IRSA for all international classes) requesting interpretation on whether sails of boats with certificate dates prior to Jan 1, 2013 are grandfathered. The rules appear ambiguous. That document is in the hands of the Canadian (CRYA) Executive at present.

One reason for the confusion is that the sail numbers are not checked at certification control as they are in Part C of the class rules and so are only required to be checked at regatta measurement check-in. So the class rule references to "at time of certification ...of." . .may not apply.

John

My draft reads



Request for technical interpretation for boats with sails displaying sail numbers in the range 01 - 09.

Q1. Are sail numbers on boats that went through certification control prior to Jan 1, 2013 grandfathered from the change in sail number specification contained in Appendix E8.b.(3) of the 2013-2016 RRS?

Q2. Are sail numbers of boats that went through certification control prior to Jan 1, 2005 grandfathered or exempt from the change in sail number specification contained in Appendix E8.b.(3) of the 2013-2016 RRS?

Q3. Must boats with sail numbers in the range 01 – 09 remove both numbers and reposition the single digit in compliance with the new Appendix E8.b.(3)?

Relevant sections from the Class rules.

A.13 COMPLIANCE WITH CLASS RULES

A.13.1 A boat ceases to comply with the class rules upon:

(d) A change of class rules that causes equipment in use to cease to be permitted, except where the equipment may comply with the class rules in force at the time of its initial certification control.



C.8.3 IDENTIFICATION

Identification shall comply with the RRS. Sails certified before 1st January 2005 shall comply with the identification rules in force at that time or at the time of certification control.



G.2.1 RULES

Sails shall comply with the class rules in force at the time of their initial certification control.
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 09 Jan 2013, 23:37

Hiljoball wrote: Request for technical interpretation for boats with sails displaying sail numbers in the range 01 - 09.
Good idea, Jhon. But remember that E8(b)(3) says the range is from 00 to 09 (do not forget 00)

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 16 Jan 2013, 16:18

In Arcos 2004, the umpires had problems with sail numbers in the range 00 to 09 and they fixed this way
Attachments
09.JPG
09.JPG (90.07 KiB) Viewed 9355 times
07.JPG
07.JPG (52.45 KiB) Viewed 9355 times
01.JPG
01.JPG (84.58 KiB) Viewed 9355 times

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Hiljoball » 16 Jan 2013, 18:37

I love it! Simple, cheap and elegant!

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 16 Jan 2013, 20:22

Problems may occur when in a race one of these numbers is repeated and should put a prefix. I think it would be better if everyone put a stripe just under the last digit of the sail number in all sails.

Lester
Posts: 611
Joined: 14 Oct 2004, 22:29
Location: GBR 105
Contact:

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Lester » 18 Jan 2013, 10:39

Xabier wrote:I think it would be better if everyone put a stripe just under the last digit of the sail number in all sails.
Hi Xabier

I think there may be a couple of problems with that, especially at a larger event (smile)... What would I hail if I wanted to protest? And, what would the scorer enter into the results spreadsheet when recording the finishing place?
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 18 Jan 2013, 12:59

I know my bad English is a problem. My idea is to put 81, with a line, to distinguish from 18, 08 from 80, 51 from 15, 188 from 881, etc.

Lester
Posts: 611
Joined: 14 Oct 2004, 22:29
Location: GBR 105
Contact:

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Lester » 18 Jan 2013, 13:13

Hi Xabier

Ah, OK, now I see...!
Lester Gilbert
http://www.onemetre.net/

TedFlack
Posts: 11
Joined: 15 Dec 2009, 15:21

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by TedFlack » 20 Jan 2013, 02:01

Hiljoball wrote:I love it! Simple, cheap and elegant!

John
I'm sorry John but to me the line through the digit or under the digit is far from "elegant", to me it is kind of ugly. Just a personal opinion.

Marko Majic
Posts: 57
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 17:56
Location: CAN 16

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Marko Majic » 20 Jan 2013, 09:26

Hi John and Xabier,
Xabier wrote:Problems may occur when in a race one of these numbers is repeated and should put a prefix.
But simply sticking with the prefixed sails does not eliminate the problem - it only makes it less likely. You would still have a problem (because of a mix of double-digit and triple-digit numbers)...

So - "Recall one-five-seven-one-nine-six" could still mean 3 boats (15, 71 & 96) or 2 boats (157 & 196)...

Probably the best solution is what I already suggested - which is to simply repeat "recall" after each number... And, truth be told, in practice, none of this might be a big deal - because pauses between digits (when spoken) will probably be sufficient...

The best thing to do would be to get rid of these over-controlling rules from the Appendix E altogether. Why does anyone need to be told the exact verbiage to use to protest somebody or recall them at the start? Anything that gets the point across is fine as far as I'm concerned - and, in practice, that's what we get (how many times have I heard "orange boat, you're over")... What - should I just ignore it because the RD didn't say "Recall three-six"? Guess in UK they do (according to Lester)... :lol:

Marko
Marko Majic
CAN 16

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 20 Jan 2013, 13:13

TedFlack wrote: it is kind of ugly.
I agree, but it is uglier the umpire call 81 for a penalty turn instead 18.

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 20 Jan 2013, 13:19

Marko Majic wrote: because pauses between digits (when spoken) will probably be sufficient...
I also agree because, without considering pauses, I can also claim that when one hundred ninety-six is called, those who do not know well the language (like me) can understand 100 and 96 or 100, 90 and 6. And French is much worse.

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 06 Feb 2013, 12:44

E8(b)(3) When the sail number is in the range ‘00’ to ‘09’, the initial
‘0’ shall be omitted and the remaining digit positioned to
allow space for both a prefix and a suffix.

E8(b)(4) ‘0’ shall not be used as a prefix.

Question: Is it possible to use a suffix without a prefix if the sail number is 0?

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Hiljoball » 06 Feb 2013, 15:34

The way I read it, yes. - but don't put the number on your sail - wait until the RD at a regatta asks you to do it - and make it removable.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 06 Feb 2013, 16:07

I guess a problem with rule E8(b)(6): Any changed sail number shall become the sail number for the event.
Does not that create a loop with Rule E8(b)(3)? (When the sail number is in the range ‘00’ to ‘09’, the initial ‘0’ shall be omitted and the remaining digit positioned to allow space for both a prefix and a suffix).

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Hiljoball » 06 Feb 2013, 17:43

I am not sure what you are getting at. It makes sense to me. The position of the single digit is to allow either or both of a prefix and/or a suffix

Say your hull number is 205, then under E8.b.3, your sail number will be 5. But at the regatta, there is a conflict with another boat, so the RD asks you to add a 1 prefix (becoming 15) or a 1 suffix (becoming 51) or even both a prefix and suffix and you become 151 for the duration of the event.

Once the event is over, you remove the 1 and revert to a sail number of 5.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 06 Feb 2013, 18:07

Hi, Jhon:

The problem is with a friend. His personal number is 100 and he should show 0 in its sails and, with a suffix (4 for example), would be 04.

User avatar
Olivier Cohen
Posts: 308
Joined: 02 Dec 2004, 17:11
Sail number: FRA 100
Design: Britpop
Location: Nantes / France

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Olivier Cohen » 06 Feb 2013, 18:26

Hi Xavier,

I guess he should add a prefix(1), and if necessary a suffix. (Or keep 100, which is ok with new rules)

Xabier
Posts: 24
Joined: 22 Jan 2009, 14:48
Location: Euskalherria (Basque Country)

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Xabier » 06 Feb 2013, 18:46

So, first the prefix and then the suffix.
Thank you, Jhon and Olibier

Hiljoball
Posts: 270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 00:47
Sail number: CAN 307
Design: V8
Location: CAN

Re: The new ISAF RRS 2013-2016 are out

Post by Hiljoball » 06 Feb 2013, 19:02

If he has a personal number of 100, then under the new RRS, his sail should display 0.

He should do nothing. He should wait until told by the Race officer what prefix/suffix to add.

John
John Ball
CRYA #895
IOM CAN 307 V8
In my private capacity

Post Reply