"ISAF prohibited" event.

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Gyula
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"ISAF prohibited" event.

Post by Gyula » 03 Jun 2005, 21:39

24 May 2005
Notice to all NCAs and IOM Owners

It has come to our attention that Naviga is advertising an upcoming regatta as a "Radio Control World Championship" in the F5-E class (and other classes).
This makes it an "ISAF prohibited" event.
An ISAF sailor taking part in such an event risks losing his or her ISAF eligibility for entry into ISAF-affiliated World and Continental Championships.
Hey everybody, is this necessary?? It sounds almost like a declaration of war!

I am not a Naviga fan, but Naviga is a "World Organisation for Modelshipbuilding and Modelshipsport" with more tham 30 member countries, including USA,GBR, AUS, ITA, GER, etc. As I know, all the modelboat (and I don't think anybody can deny that our one metre long yachts are model boats) world championships are organized by Naviga, only in the sailboat classes is this odd situation that both ISAF and Naviga has world championships. This event (like it or not) will be the 13-th Naviga world championship.

Shouldn't we try to find a way to sail together, rather than prohibit events?

The IOM class is growing, OK, but the ISAF Marblehead Worlds last year wasn't held, 10 Rater Worlds was last time in 1999. In The Naviga worlds will be all three classes.

Instead of prohibiting the participation, why not send the best skippers to Poland and prove that IOM boats are better.

Regards
Gyula

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"ISAF prohibited" event.

Post by Ken Dobbie » 04 Jun 2005, 00:14

I am not a Naviga fan, but Naviga is a "World Organisation for Modelshipbuilding and Modelshipsport" with more tham 30 member countries, including USA,GBR, AUS, ITA, GER, etc.
To correct the possible impression given by the above that Naviga has any authority in respect of radio sailing in the above countries it must be noted that in USA, GBR and AUS Naviga has affiliates only from power boat organisations.

Gyula should look within Naviga for the reasons behind the ISAF ruling.


Regards


Ken

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Post by Gyula » 04 Jun 2005, 11:35

Please don't misundertand me. Far from me to judge the authority of anyone, but the existence of two organizations is a fact, and we have to live with that. I didn't choose to be Naviga member, as probably beeing an ISAF member wasn't your personal choice too. It was the way we can sail RC yachts. I just don't like the idea of this prohibition.

Regards
Gyula

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Post by jandejmo » 05 Jun 2005, 14:21

Gyula wrote:
24 May 2005
As I know, all the modelboat ... world championships are organized by Naviga, only in the sailboat classes is this odd situation that both ISAF and Naviga has world championships.
Well, the International Power Boat Association, UIM, has radio control classes and stage world championships for these.

The odd thing, as I see it, is that Naviga has chosen to “adoptâ€

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Post by Gyula » 06 Jun 2005, 13:09

[quote] Naviga has chosen to “adoptâ€

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Post by Gyula » 06 Jun 2005, 14:47

It is interesting to read the IOM history on the IOMICA site
An International One Metre class was first adopted by the IMYRU in 1958 .
...
No significant international competition appears to have taken place and it is assumed the class effectively died out some time in the 1960's.
...
In the 1980's there appeared a number of 'one metre' classes in the US, Japan, France, and Germany (Naviga E class rule).
...
It was clear that a One Metre boat with tightly restricted rigs and equipment could produce an inexpensive class and close competition for experts and beginners alike.
...
During the development of the 1988 class rules...



Regards
Gyula

jandejmo
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Post by jandejmo » 06 Jun 2005, 16:22

A little history.


When IMYRU was planning to join IYRU I had some talks with Hans Kukula, then Naviga secretary and chairman of their sailing section. IMYRU's plan was to relinquish its world authority status and have radio sailing becoming a part of IYRU. The question put to Hans Kukula was whether the Naviga sailing section could join us in a new organisation under IYRU. In short the answer was that they were convinced that IYRU would never accept radio sailing and therefore not interested. The rest is history.

When we were to replace the old International One Metre Rule with a new one, I knew that Naviga was thinking about an "economy" sailboat one metre long. I asked Hans Kukula if they could consider postponing their rules so that we could investigate if it would be possible to create a common class. The draft Naviga class rules would without any doubt have created a very expensive one metre long Marblehead in the hands of the IYRU radio sailors.

Naviga however published their rules without any further communication and we then published the International One Metre Class Rules. Naviga has since changed their F5E rules to be now very close to the IOM class rules. Diagrams and all without asking for permission.


Jan Dejmo

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Post by Gyula » 06 Jun 2005, 16:56

Thank you for these informations.
The question put to Hans Kukula was whether the Naviga sailing section could join us in a new organisation under IYRU
Probably it would be the best solution....

Regards
Gyula Ferencz

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Post by jandejmo » 06 Jun 2005, 17:20

Hi again Gyula,


Two things inspired by your postings.
Gyula wrote: why not send the best skippers to Poland and prove that IOM boats are better.
The fact that IOM boats tend to beat F5E boats probably has to do with the level of competition in the two classes. The few construction differences that remain in the class rules are quite important from performance point of view and F5E boats have the potential to be "better".
Gyula wrote: I didn't choose to be Naviga member, as probably beeing an ISAF member wasn't your personal choice too.
Well, I first came across a radio sailboat when collecting big boat sails at an English sailmaker’s loft. Returning home I found a model boat club that were sailing according to Naviga rules. The racing rules permitted hitting marks, which created strange tactics, and the class rules were so rudimentary that it was difficult to know what you were allowed to do and what you were not allowed to do.

We became a group a big boat sailors that really liked radio sailing but we wanted to race according to racing rules we were familiar with and with proper class rules. We had a look around and found IMYRU. We then formed a national radio sailing association and had it affiliated to the national sailing federation and to IMYRU.

So, I think I can say that what became the ISAF-Radio Sailing Division was my personal choice :)

The possibility of free flow of sailors, judges, measurers, race officials etc. between different disciplines of sailing is an advantage for all and especially for radio sailing. So why don’t you talk with your fellow one metre sailors in Rumania about joining the Rumanian sailing community? I am sure that the Rumanian Sailing Federation would be happy to assist. If not ISAF and ISAF-RSD could help you to get things going.


Regards

Jan

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Post by Gyula » 06 Jun 2005, 21:04

We became a group a big boat sailors that really liked radio sailing

I think this is one of the main differences. In our country most of the rc sailors (including myself) never sailed a big boat. We are mainly model builders, who build many kind of model boats, powerboats, static models, etc, even airplane models.
So I was a Naviga club member before I sailed my first RC sailboat.
I was bothered too when I saw that on Naviga events the rules are not taken very seriously, but how you can take it seriously if the mark is so far away that you hardly can see the boat. And, personally I hate to hit the marks (even if I do it sometimes).
There was a time when I was thinking to form a new club and contact the Romanian Sailing Federation to affiliate it to ISAF, but there are some counter-arguments too. All the neighbor countries are Naviga members, all the international events that we can afford to go are Naviga events.
By the way there is a huge difference between the participation fee at a major ISAF and a Naviga event. There would be a lot more to discus abut these problem, but I am not sure that this forum's readers would be interested in more Naviga problems :)

Regards
Gyula

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Post by jandejmo » 06 Jun 2005, 21:49

Gyula,


The issues you raise are very important and issues ISAF-RSD ought to look into.

However, the current radio sailing membership in ISAF is sort of a temporary solution until the most suitable form for full integration is found. The ISAF-RSD membership will this year vote on a proposal that the international radio sailing classes affiliate directly to ISAF through international class associations like is the case for the majority of ISAF classes in the other disciplines of sailing. The One Metre class already has a well working ICA and the proposal will likely be that ISAF-RSD will be turned into a multi ICA for the Marblehead, Ten Rater and A classes.

Assuming that the proposal will be passed, I think it then would be a very important issue to look into the problems you have described. Personally I think this ought to be done on ISAF level in cooperation with the national sailing federations in the countries concerned. I will undertake some investigations to see what possibilities there are in the form of development funds etc.


Regards

Jan

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Post by Chairman » 06 Jun 2005, 23:41

Gyula wrote:By the way there is a huge difference between the participation fee at a major ISAF and a Naviga event. There would be a lot more to discus abut these problem, but I am not sure that this forum's readers would be interested in more Naviga problems
Hi Gyula

Your comments are very interesting, and I think they are relevant to the IOM. I am sure many an IOM sailor has wondered whether racing would be better if we could hit marks, whether the relatively high cost of International events is reasonable, and (one you haven't yet mentioned) whether there isn't a better way of resolving protests and disputes through the use of video technology.

I believe IOMICA wishes to encourage a situation where F5E and IOM sailors can compete together. As Jan says, however, perhaps we need to wait until the future of RSD is clear before making further proposals.

On the topic of "ISAF prohibited event", the wording might be a translation from another language, because in English it doesn't really say what I think it should say. As has been explained, the issue is not that a Naviga event is "prohibited" (ISAF has no power to do that!), but only that a sailor must choose whether to sail under an ISAF umbrella or a Naviga umbrella, because ISAF does not accept that a sailor can do both at "world championship" level. We can have a good discussion whether this point of view of ISAF is a reasonable one, but in practice any sailor who aspires to sail at an IOM World Championship cannot sail at the Naviga World Championship without very considerable risk of becoming ineligible for IOMICA events...
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Post by jandejmo » 07 Jun 2005, 09:15

Chairman wrote:As has been explained, the issue is not that a Naviga event is "prohibited" (ISAF has no power to do that!), but only that a sailor must choose whether to sail under an ISAF umbrella or a Naviga umbrella, because ISAF does not accept that a sailor can do both at "world championship" level.
I agree with Lester that ISAF has no intention to "prohibit" Naviga events.

What it is about is that the national sailing associations, as organised in ISAF, do not want class events to be labelled as a world championship until international competition in the class has reached a reasonable level. In other words, they do not want the world champion title in sailing to become diluted.

ISAF sailors are therefore required to not support any event labelled as a world championship that has not been approved by ISAF.


Regards

Jan

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Post by Gyula » 07 Jun 2005, 12:37

do not want class events to be labelled as a world championship until international competition in the class has reached a reasonable level
I perfectly agree with that. But if we take a look on the entrants list at an IOM world championship, and the Naviga championship in the F5E class for example in 2003, in Canada were 16 countries (if I am not wrong) and in Austria were 12 countries. Interesting is, that only one country (France) was represented at both events (with a single competitor in both cases).
Woldnt it be better somehow to get it together and have a real World championship with lets say 30 countries?

And, I again mention the other classes (Marblehead and 10 Rater) in which there were no ISAF world championship in the last few years.

Regards
Gyula

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Post by jandejmo » 07 Jun 2005, 14:04

Gyula,
Gyula wrote:Woldnt it be better somehow to get it together
Absolutely!

When IMYRU turned to IYRU in the 1980ies we had realised that we would not be able to develop the rules specific to radio sailing and at the same time duplicate the services IYRU and their national sailing associations could provide to radio sailors in the form of administration, general rules, measurers, race officials, judges, etc, etc.

ISAF has about 115 member countries incuding those all those where there is Naviga sailing. So there is nothing on international level preventing sailors entering ISAF radio sailing world championships.

I know there are problems on national level in some countries, but it ought to be possible to solve these if radio sailors have talks with their national sailing associations. ISAF has been able to help in the past when such talks have not gone as smoothly as the radio sailors have wishes.

Naviga chose not to join us under ISAF’s wings and I honestly think Naviga has little to offer in developing radios sailing into a competitive form of sailing. I also find "adopting" work that other organisations have put a lot of time, effort and money into an unacceptable strategy for the future.

It is correct that there has not been Marblehead and Ten Rater world championships recently and this partly due to the fact that ISAF-RSD is sort of acting as a world authority for radio sailing on the behalf of ISAF and therefore, like ISAF, unable to promote individual classes. This is hopefully something that will be solved by having ISAF-RSD replaced by one or more international class associations. There are also big differences in ISAF's and Naviga's views on organisation and format of world championships, but that would take far too long to comment on here.

Regards
Jan

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Post by Gyula » 07 Jun 2005, 21:55

Some elder rc sailors told me that there were times when Romania was YMRU and Naviga member in the same time. Is this possible, or I misunderstood something?

Regards
Gyula

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Post by jandejmo » 07 Jun 2005, 22:57

Hi again Gyula,
Gyula wrote:Some elder rc sailors told me that there were times when Romania was YMRU and Naviga member in the same time. Is this possible, or I misunderstood something?
If my memory does not fail me Rumania was member of IMYRU at one time.

How things are arranged on national level is from ISAF point of view, and thereby also ISAF-RSD point of view, a matter for the national sailing association. I hope that could be of some help for you?

Regards
Jan

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Post by Eric » 18 Jun 2005, 10:55

Hi Lester

But F5M and IOM are not even the same Boat, the Classrules are different,

Greetings

Eric

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Post by jandejmo » 18 Jun 2005, 12:23

Hi Eric,
Eric wrote:But F5M and IOM are not even the same Boat, the Classrules are different
I may have misunderstood you but it is not the class that is the issue. The issue is the title of the event.
  • ISAF Regulations 19.4.1: "A prohibited event is an event: (c) that is described as a world championship or uses the word "world", either in the title of the event or otherwise, and that is not approved by the ISAF."
Regards
Jan

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Post by Eric » 18 Jun 2005, 12:38

aha

I sail also micro-magic in germany

If I organize a Micro Magic "World" Champiomship ,I will also be banned from IOM sailing in the ISAF ?

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Post by jandejmo » 18 Jun 2005, 13:12

Hi Eric,
Eric wrote:If I organize a Micro Magic "World" Champiomship ,I will also be banned from IOM sailing in the ISAF ?
It has to do with your ISAF eligibility as sailor – not as organiser.

The ISAF Regulations:
  • Events Requiring ISAF Eligibility

    19.3 ISAF Eligibility is required for the following events:
    • (a) the sailing regatta of the Olympic Games;
      (b) the sailing regattas of Regional Games recognized by the International Olympic Committee;
      (c) events including “ISAFâ€

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Post by Eric » 18 Jun 2005, 13:29

And if I take part in the "Micro-Magic World Championship" ?

What happens then?

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Post by jandejmo » 18 Jun 2005, 13:36

Hi again Eric,
Eric wrote:And if I take part in the "Micro-Magic World Championship" ? What happens then?
Then you risk loosing your ISAF eligibility. And if you loose your ISAF eligibility you cannot take part in any event - not only IOM events - covered by ISAF regulation 19.3 quoted below.

Regards
Jan

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Post by Eric » 18 Jun 2005, 13:44

Sorry ,but this is stupid and make no sense,

---or than tell me one.....

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Post by Gyula » 18 Jun 2005, 18:43

So, if the 13-th Naviga worlds would be called something like 13-th International Naviga Sailing Cup for example, than everithing would be nice and OK :?: :!:

Regards
Gyula Ferencz

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Post by Chairman » 18 Jun 2005, 19:38

Gyula wrote:So, if the 13-th Naviga worlds would be called something like 13-th International Naviga Sailing Cup for example, then everything would be OK
Hi Gyula

Sure! Other classes have something they call "The Gold Cup", for example, or the "The International Trophy", or whatever...
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Post by Eric » 18 Jun 2005, 21:57

Chairman wrote:
Gyula wrote:So, if the 13-th Naviga worlds would be called something like 13-th International Naviga Sailing Cup for example, then everything would be OK
Hi Gyula

Sure! Other classes have something they call "The Gold Cup", for example, or the "The International Trophy", or whatever...



Hi Lester..


I did not know that the word " World" is a Trademark.

It´s just ridiculous.

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Post by Gyula » 18 Jun 2005, 22:37

This means that if we could convince Naviga to change the name of the championship, all the IOM sailors, for whom Australia is too far, could came to Poland and have great sailing for a 15 euro participation fee :P
Gyula Ferencz

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Post by Eric » 18 Jun 2005, 22:42

Gyula wrote:This means that if we could convince Naviga to change the name of the championship, all the IOM sailors, for whom Australia is too far, could came to Poland and have great sailing for a 15 euro participation fee :P
do you know the song from john lennon : "imagine" ?

:D

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Post by Gyula » 18 Jun 2005, 23:02

Yes :)
" Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as ONE"
Gyula Ferencz

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