Mid Event Measurement Checks

Barry Fox CAN262 · Post by **Barry Fox CAN262** » 08 Jan 2009, 03:09

So in the SI document(s) the organizers reserve the right to spot check boats throughout an event. What I can't find anywhere is a guideline for what is done when something comes up out of range.

It is kind of indicated in RRS that the finding goes to a jury to determine the penalty and that has to happen before the next race. It is also indicated that the errant boat can continue to sail as is if it declares that it will appeal the penalty.

Does the boat get DNF or DSQ for all the races up to the point of discovery? Once it is "fixed" (I presume a re-check to verify that) it resumes sailing? Does it just DSQ for the race during which the variance is found? Do they pack up and go home?

Just wondering.

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 08 Jan 2009, 04:48

finding a boat illegal during a spot check after a heat only truly determines that the boat was illegal for that heat and IMHO, should have a DSQ for that heat. More draconian, you could DSQ the boat for all heats up to that point. It is impossible to tell if the boat had been illegal for all prior heats - something could have fallen off between original weigh-in and the heat in question. Whether it should be a "droppable DSQ" is up for grabs.

Good point - if this clause is in the SI's its mechanism, enforcement, and penalties need to be specified.

Ken Dobbie · Post by **Ken Dobbie** » 08 Jan 2009, 05:43

Precedence as determined by an International Jury in respect of an underweight boat is that the boat is DSQ from the heat in which the infringement occurred.

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 08 Jan 2009, 06:43

Is this type of DSQ eligible to be a "throw out"?

Lester · Post by **Lester** » 08 Jan 2009, 08:36

Might be worth pointing out that this "precedence" derives from full size, where there is only one or maybe two races in a day.

Also might be worth pointing out that being able to continue to sail after declaring an appeal applies only when an interpretation of the class or measurement rule is required by the Jury. For example, that the batten pocket did not conform to the class rules. It does not apply when the measurement is failure is obvious, for example, the boat weights 3.990 kg.

As far as I know, there is no precedence for radio sailing. That is, there is no "established" process for dealing with the issue in the context of the heat management systems which radio sailing typically uses. Bruce is right -- this is an opportunity for IOMICA to suggest something appropriate.

Alfonso · Post by **Alfonso** » 08 Jan 2009, 12:07

IMHO IOMICA does not need to do anything in this issue. The RRS is quite clear in this point if the measurer detect that a boat does not comply with the class rule it will be protested by the race committee and the Jury will decide the penalty.

What do we have to add? whether DSQ is a very high penalty for a boat that is1mm extralong.

Barry Fox CAN262 · Post by **Barry Fox CAN262** » 09 Jan 2009, 20:40

A good conversation. I wasn't looking for their to be a definitive answer, just some idea about how seriously to take any infractions.

I would guess that weight changing or substituting some piece of the rigging are likely the most common things you would find if the initial event measurement already checks weight and the various floating dimensions. Among our group I don't think there is much chance of a malicious cheating taking place but if the boat isn't legal at any point in a competition there ought to be some consequence.

If you ignore these kinds of things during higher club level events or regional type of things you aren't doing anyone any favours if they travel and find out about some of the formalities the hard way.

I don't know that there is much of a history of this happening at events around the world so I was looking for some hints about what to do.

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 12 Jan 2009, 22:50

As a IOM skipper (not as VC Events), I feel that if a boat is found out of measurement in a mid race check, a DSQ for that heat is appropriate. There is plenty of time to make sure your boat is legal and plenty of official measurers to certify that fact. If you have a new piece of equipment or fitting that might not be legal, send a note to the VC Tech for an interpretation. IMHO, there is no reason for a boat to not measure properly.

Whether the DSQ can be "dropped" is a different question. My suggestion is that is should not be "drop-able". Raising the penalty for an illegal boat certainly decreases temptation. I don't buy the argument that "the bumper was only 1 mm too long" or "my old winch broke and I didn't realize the new one was lighter" etc. At every large regatta, a scale and a measurer are available to help skippers check their boats, even after repairs. Stiff penalties will help insure that skippers actually do check their boats, even after minor changes.

In the thread about the cost of WC regattas, a suggestion that we do away with weigh in and measurement at the onset of the regatta in order to save time is an interesting one. I think it's a good idea when teamed with random mid-regatta measurement checks and penalties that make people take notice.

I envision a "measurement station" with a scale, float tank, and sail measurement templates available at regattas for skippers to utilize (on their own) at any time during the regatta in order to insure that the boat they are sailing qualifies as an IOM.

Alfonso · Post by **Alfonso** » 16 Jan 2009, 11:41

As a IOM skipper (not as VC Events), I feel that if a boat is found out of measurement in a mid race check, a DSQ for that heat is appropriate. There is plenty of time to make sure your boat is legal and plenty of official measurers to certify that fact. If you have a new piece of equipment or fitting that might not be legal, send a note to the VC Tech for an interpretation. IMHO, there is no reason for a boat to not measure properly

I am sorry Bruce but I do not agree with you. I think that life is not always simple and that there are many different situations and some of them are out of our control. Let me explain you my personal experience in the last Worlds in Marseille.

At the beginning of the event I passed the measurement and everything in my boat was right, but while I was racing in one heat someone crashed into me and pulled slightly out the jib counterbalance weight. I canâ€™t remember whether it was 1, 2 or 3 mm extralong, but not very much, otherwise I would have realized. I kept on racing several heats more and after one of them I had to pass a random check. The measurer saw the infraction but he decided not protesting me as he understood that I didnâ€™t do it on purpose and that it didnâ€™t increase the speed of my boat.

Due to my personal experience is why I think we should let this issue in Measurers and Juryâ€™s hands as it is stated in the RRS.

In the thread about the cost of WC regattas, a suggestion that we do away with weigh in and measurement at the onset of the regatta in order to save time is an interesting one. I think it's a good idea when teamed with random mid-regatta measurement checks and penalties that make people take notice.

I am glad that you like this idea that, as you know, I proposed in the bid for the Almeriaâ€™s WC 09, but trust me we donâ€™t need to set the penalties.

RoyL · Post by **RoyL** » 16 Jan 2009, 20:35

I was initially a believer in the concept of mid-race measurement, but I don't see how it can really work at the worlds. If you pick a boat that is being promoted for example, you have to stop the racing to do the measurement. If you limit boats to be checked to those that aren't being promoted, you no longer have a random check. Finally, to do these checks you need to keep a measurement staff around throughout the race. Overall, it appears to me that it would be easier to just measure every boat efficiently at the start of racing. Of course, I also think we should be open to other ideas.

Graham J Elliott · Post by **Graham J Elliott** » 16 Jan 2009, 21:10

The mid event random measurement works brilliantly. Too many boats are turning up at Championships and even though they have a certificate they are still found to be out of rating. It took Robert and his helpers a whole day plus in Croatia and his report makes for interesting reading, what percentage were out of rating and had to be sent away then re-measured later on, an awful lot.
Too many skippers are being lazy and relying on the goodwill of these people to check things they should of done before the event in there own time.
What happens when there is no pre-race measurement but random checks is a very high percentage of conforming boats, who in there right mind is going to go to all the expense and time to get to the Championship and then be disqualified.
The random checking does not hold up racing, what race committee would seriously check a promoted boat and hold the event up.
The threat of a random check at an event is good enough even if all the boats are not measured.
Just found Roberts report from 08 Euros. To summarise it took 4 people two days to measure 70 boats with almost 50% not even passing the draught measurement, add this to the other infringements and the figure is frightening.
Only way to put a stop to this is random checks throughout the event and you will see within a few years a fantastic improvement

RoyL · Post by **RoyL** » 17 Jan 2009, 00:32

Graham: Would really appreciate more on how the mid race measurement system can work. If it's not a random drawing, how do you select boats for spot measurement? How long does it take per boat and how many people do you need to do the measurement? How many boats do you check? Do you also do measurement at the conclusion of the race? What is the penalty for being out of compliance? If the system can be made to work, I'm all for it.

Graham J Elliott · Post by **Graham J Elliott** » 17 Jan 2009, 11:22

Hi Roy,
each measurement probably takes about 10 minutes.I suppose the race committee or an umpire could do this,i have never been to a championship where there has never been hold ups in the racing when a few random checks could be done or between races when the the boat to be measured is not racing
Measurement at the conclussion of the race is not required but could be adopted.
Not sure of the penalty if a boat did not conform, the penalty would be up to the protest committee. In my opinion a certain degree of common sense is required with this. In the case that Alfonso quoted i feel the outcome was the correct one, if a boat was incorrect on the draught measurement i would not think it unreasonable of the protest committee to dsq all races that had been sailed unless the skipper could come up with some extremely good reason but as i cannot think of one reason why this measurement would alter during the race it would look bleak for them.
The selection would be totally random with no regulation on the amount of times any one boat could be measured.
The whole idea is not HOW MANY or WHO gets measured. The idea is that skippers get the message that it is there responsibity for a correctly rated boat and if found guilty they will be punished, just the threat of spot measurements has the impact.

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 18 Jan 2009, 03:23

On a practical, manpower based note, it took Don Martin's crew in Vancouver about a day to measure the entire fleet with, if I recall correctly, about 8 staff in 4 stations.

If the measurement of all boats is held first, that means there are 8 more bodies free to work the sailing part of the regatta.

As to Alphonso's personal experience with mid-event measurement:

1) Measurement is a black and white affair - either you measure in or your boat is not legal. Whether or not your boat is illegal accidentally or on purpose has no bearing. As a skipper, you are responsible for your boat being legal.

2) Officials should not have the ability to bend the rules based upon a story told them by a skipper. If your counterweight pulled out in a collision (one that, by virtue of contact being made, should have been protested) and you won the protest, you could appeal to the Protest Committee for redress claiming that through no fault of your own your boat's position was significantly degraded.

3) I do believe that the penalty for failing a mid-event measurement needs to be defined, simply so everyone realizes the down side of not checking their boat for compliance.

wim bakker · Post by **wim bakker** » 18 Jan 2009, 08:44

"1) Measurement is a black and white affair - either you measure in or your boat is not legal. 2) Officials should not have the ability to bend the rules based upon a story told them by a skipper."

Many years ago, I was random measuring participants at a full size dinghy world championship. There was no pre race measuring. After the last race but one, the then leader was picked. That day it had been blowing 5Bft. The leech of the mainsail measurement was in the class rules. On this boat the leech had streched just outside of the allowed measurement. As the sail had been used in all prior races, I measured the boat out of class for the entire regatta.
The protest committee, did not uphold my decision and only disqualified the boat in that race, allowing a discard. The boat won the championship.

BTW
In Marseille, my fin/keel was found to be 10 grams too heavy in pre event mearuring (probably due to the fresh layer of paint that I sprayed on before the event). No note was made of this by the measurers. I then sanded some paint off, then presented the keel again and it was fine. No note was made of this either. My conclusion at the time was that some of the the pre event measuring was a (very useful) service to the competitors, hopefully preventing problems after random checking. (Sails were signed after measuring).

Please be careful when cancelling pre race measurement.....

Wim Bakker
NED

valpro · Post by **valpro** » 18 Jan 2009, 10:37

I could bore you all rigid with measurement stories but I wont. In my experience, pre-race measurement is essential to a smooth championship, and properly controlled is appreciated by the competitors. What you find at pre race measurement is always the same. The really top skippers will turn up with all the paperwork done, the boat prepared and checked before they left home and will stroll through the process. Then you will have an endless succession of careless omissions, such as no colored bands on the mast, new sails unmeasured and weight problems because something has been changed in a hurry. But at the end of the process, the general feeling will be that the playing field is as level as it can realistically be and now we can get on with the serious stuff. (You know, things like beer and sailing!)
By all means check on boats at random through the week - I got caught at one regatta because I had a lighter battery in the boat and so the boat was underweight - but please, measure them properly first. If we could check measure 87 505 hulls, 87 masts and booms and 783 sails in 2 days, an IOM fleet should be a breeze.

Graham J Elliott · Post by **Graham J Elliott** » 18 Jan 2009, 14:52

The whole idea about skippers relying on the pre-race measurement to ensure there boat measures does not sit well with me, relying on 4-8 people giving there own time to do something that should of been done by the skipper.
These measurers are not then free to help with the running of the race as what happens is that the pre-measurement is normally undertaken at a weekend, these people will give up the weekend to help out but most then go back to work on the Monday.
As Robert said in his report, 50% of the 08 Euro entry was over on the draught measurement, this needs to be addressed

valpro · Post by **valpro** » 18 Jan 2009, 21:42

The whole business of running championships in our branch of the sport relies on volunteers and their willingness to freely give their time. Otherwise we would be in the same place as so many of the current big boat classes and be gaily talking about coats of Â£20,000 per regatta to participate. Thats on top of the entry fee etc. However its is not the skippers that rely on the pre race measurement, it is the Jury and the Race Committee. It saves a lot of time and potential problems and at the point at which the Measurer in charge is able to sign off the fleet as being in conformity and pass a report to the Jury and PRO, marks the start of racing in earnest.
Yes. I agree that all the boats should be in compliance at all times and properly handled, the pre race measurement is a good educational tool towards that end, but we live in the real world and people are lazy/careless/cynical or just plain ignorant. The whole process of measurement needs to be simpler, more accurate and and easier to understand. And please dont underestimate the problems of understanding the Rules to someone whose first language is not English. I am married to a Dutchman who speaks four languages fluently but even he struggles to grasp the meaning sometimes and it is a complaint I often hear from non english sailors.
Premeasurment may be a pain but, believe me, it is worth doing every time.

Ken Dobbie · Post by **Ken Dobbie** » 19 Jan 2009, 01:28

I agree.

Ken Dobbie · Post by **Ken Dobbie** » 19 Jan 2009, 01:29

I agree.

Zoran · Post by **Zoran** » 19 Jan 2009, 11:59

I agree with Val, with few more points on the mid-event measurement from the Judge's point of view.

According to the RRS 78.3 when an equipment inspector or a measurer decide that a boat does not comply with the class rules he shall report the matterin writing to the race committee.

Race committee shall than protest the boat according to the RRS 60.2.

When random checks are done it is expected that winning boat will be checked or at least some of top 6 being promoted. If measurer finds anything wrong with boats checked there should be a hearing and with use of HMS racing will have to be stopped until the protest is decided.

It is much easier to avoid this with pre-race measurement and have as much as possible races

Lester · Post by **Lester** » 19 Jan 2009, 18:43

I think Graham and Val are talking about somewhat different issues.

Val notes that an international championship needs to have all the boats event measured before racing starts for a number of good reasons, and I don't think anyone disagrees much.

Graham notes that a number of competitors seem to be using this event measurement as an opportunity to have their boat fundamentally measured. The fact that 50% or so of boats in a recent international event apparently failed event measurement is an extraordinary outcome which Graham finds unacceptable. I don't think anyone would disagree with that too much either.

At the Euro champs in Arcos a few years ago I had the opportunity to observe the entire day of measurement. What caught my attention was that two of the sport's most senior (and respected!) competitors presented boats which could not possibly have been properly fundamentally measured, yet there they were with apparently valid certificates. What outraged me was that neither of these two competitors showed the slighted concern with the failure of their boats. With a cynical and arrogant attitude, they proceeded to make grudging changes to their boats all the while bad-mouthing the chief measurer for his insistence that the boats would not be passed for competition until they measured correctly. It seems that their attitude has caught on to much of the fleet. I think that is the issue that Graham is pointing to, and the interesting question is what to do about it...

Lester · Post by **Lester** » 19 Jan 2009, 19:25

Graham J Elliott · Post by **Graham J Elliott** » 19 Jan 2009, 20:54

I wave my flag and give up.
Let us carry on relying on the goodwill of people to volunteer to do measurement that should of been done at home and when this goodwill ends we will pay Â£20,000 entry fees.
On my reckoning i would get to the 10r Euros about mid March if they decide to do a full pre-race measurement of a fleet of 70 odd boats.
Racing would NOT be held up as a promoted boat would NOT be called for a check measurement as i pointed out earlier.